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Topic:
Topic author: andyb
Subject: Delete this posting
Posted on: 26 Mar 2006 14:08:11
Message:
Delete this posting
Replies:
Reply author: Iain
Replied on: 26 Mar 2006 14:19:25
Message:
Don't know for sure, but possibly admixture with diatomaceous earth may be a possibility. Depends on how much wheat we're talking about. Anyone else with a better suggestion?
I'll e-mail you privately with a couple of contacts in the fumigation game who may be able to put you right and I will follow up next week.
Cheers,
Iain
Reply author: NickA
Replied on: 26 Mar 2006 14:40:30
Message:
Heat treatment?
Also download a copy of Organic Farming & Food Production booklet from BPCA website.
Interesting reading. Check any suggested pesticide free products also if a withdrawal period is needed.
Working for co-operation ,not division between OUR Associations.
Reply author: blatta
Replied on: 26 Mar 2006 16:03:34
Message:
Heat is impossible. Too large a scale - 100 tonnes of product (grain is very good insulator).
You cannot fumigate, this is not allowed by Soil Association.
I would agree with Iain, Dessiccant dusts are your most likely chance. Could the grain be put through a dryer to reduce moisture and add the dessiccant dust at that point?
Your best bet is to talk to the Soil Association themselves. Head Office is in Bristol.Standards Dept 0117 987 4566. They will give you the definitve answer.
Have you looked up BPCA info on organis farming.
http://www.bpca.org.uk/Organic%20Farming.pdf
Forgot to ask, is it Soil Association or another standard?
Reply author: Matt the Rat
Replied on: 26 Mar 2006 17:18:49
Message:
Get the moisture below 18%. Most arable farmers have grain drying facilities. Failing that, get permision from the certification people to use an approved (by them) insecticide: its a myth that you cant use chemicals on organic sites, they only ban the routine use of pesticides.
KoK
Reply author: blatta
Replied on: 26 Mar 2006 17:31:22
Message:
Matt, Soil Association are pretty firm on the use of insecticides on sites complying with their standards. Whilst they may allow the use of some insecticides with their approval on the building fabric, they would not allow its use on any actual product.
I do not know the details of the other organic standards without checking at the office.
Andy, what Standard are we talking about?
Blatta
Reply author: NickA
Replied on: 26 Mar 2006 18:23:24
Message:
What it does tell you is that no preventative pest control was undertaken as per Soil Association standards.
Heat fair point Lewis, but considering the devolopement it could be possible or even being done.
Like this link.
http://sgrl.csiro.au/storage/heat/Heat.pdf
Working for co-operation ,not division between OUR Associations.
Reply author: NickA
Replied on: 26 Mar 2006 20:32:23
Message:
The grain might not be accepted.
Working for co-operation ,not division between OUR Associations.
Reply author: Dusty
Replied on: 26 Mar 2006 22:26:12
Message:
Diatomaceous earth is a contaminant. The mind boggles at what it will do to the ground flour
Usually organics will accept pyrethrins.
Do you guys have BOC pestigas? Its a mixture of pyrethrin and Piperonyl Butoxide, propelled with high pressure CO2 and has no residual
Don't feed them, get Rid of them
Reply author: Matt the Rat
Replied on: 26 Mar 2006 23:24:32
Message:
Reduction in moisture will prevent further development whilst treatment of the fabric of the building can take place.
The only other thing which you could consider is CO2 treatment (Paragon, speak to Jeff Callahan). I agree with Dusty, I cannot see any mill wanting to buy contaminated product.
KoK
Reply author: Helen
Replied on: 27 Mar 2006 09:42:34
Message:
i'm no miller but if the moisture level in the grain is too low then the grain can't be used as milling wheat and will have to go for feed.
Helen
Luxan(UK)Ltd
Reply author: Dusty
Replied on: 27 Mar 2006 10:08:00
Message:
Surprisingly, there are pesticides that can be sprayed directly onto the grain as it travels on a conveyor belt. (Not much use if in bags) I seriously doubt that they would pass even the most liberal organics test
Don't feed them, get Rid of them
Reply author: NickA
Replied on: 27 Mar 2006 10:44:03
Message:
If it is for most assured schemes a condition is that pest control is in place. D.E. isn't that done as grain loaded into silo?
Samples of incoming grain normally taken and stored by millers?
JD have a look at the link Lewis supplied and read some of the conditions about using pesticides.
Working for co-operation ,not division between OUR Associations.
Reply author: blatta
Replied on: 27 Mar 2006 14:19:24
Message:
What mark up is there on organic wheat? Could the wheat already be too contaminated/infested to be sold for Milling? Would it be cheaper and/or easier to fumigate it with Phosphine and take the hit from downgrading from organic status?
The gap between Feed Wheat price (�68) and Milled Wheat price (�74) is very narrow at present (Source: Farmers Weekly). Organic Wheat?
Stating the obvious I know!
Blatta
Reply author: Iain
Replied on: 27 Mar 2006 16:44:53
Message:
Lewis,
My thoughts too and having talked to Andy earlier today, I suspect this is the way things will proceed in this case.
The infestation seems to have got to a high level - almost certainly from another store next door, so there is little that can be done be done easily and organically at this stage. As you've said before, it all depends on which organic association is involved as to what will be allowable - and they will be asking the farmer awkward questions about how things have got to this stage. Not Andy's fault I might add!
It may be possible to admix diatomaceous earth to the top 30 cm of the stack at a rate of 200g per sq metre, but using ag-labelled product, which appears to be much more expensive than our public health-labelled product. (See Nick's recent post on different pricing in different markets - but in this case to the advantage of us PH pesties!).
I'm following through with Andy on this, but a couple of points for general note:
For specialist work, such as grain treatment, grain and building fumigation and of course, my favourite - large scale bird work - it may be best for smaller general pesties to make 'strategic alliances' with specialist companies to be used as sub-contractors when needed. All distributors ought to be able to make suggestions regarding this.
Farm work, especially regarding organic treatments, can get very complex, very quickly!
Organic farmers need to be much more on the ball with regard to preventing infestation from other stores, monitoring programmes and keeping stored grain in suitable conditions. Emergency pest control once things have got out of control is not enough!
Finally, Andy asked for help on all three Forums. This one seems to have been the most useful.
Reply author: Dusty
Replied on: 28 Mar 2006 02:58:51
Message:
Safety considerations
The absorbent qualities of diatomaceous earth can result in a significant drying of the hands if handled without gloves. The saltwater form contains the highly crystalline form of silica resulting in sharp edges. The sharpness of this version of the material makes it dangerous to breathe and a dust mask is recommended when working with it.
The type of hazard posed by inhalation depends on the form of the silica. Crystalline silica (silicon dioxide) poses a serious inhalation hazard because it can cause silicosis and can eventually lead to cancer. Amorphous silica can cause dusty lungs, but does not carry the same degree of risk as crystalline silica. Food-grade diatomaceous earth generally contains very low percentages of crystalline silica. Diatomaceous earth produced for pool filters is treated with heat, causing the formerly amorphous silicon dioxide to assume crystalline form; so if you want to know the risk you are assuming with exposure to diatomaceous earth, it is important to ascertain its crystalline silica content.
Don't feed them, get Rid of them
Reply author: Iain
Replied on: 28 Mar 2006 07:53:38
Message:
Monitoring Traps for Stored Product Beetles
for monitoring in grain:
PC Traps (Pitfall Cone) are buried in and on the surface of stored grain. No lure necessary, as the movement of insects and mites through and on the grain will result in some falling into the traps. An industry standard.
For monitoring in grain stores
The PC Floor Trap is a variation of the above, which is used on the floor of grain stores. Can also be used as a simple pifall trap, but a lot of work at CSL has shown the effectiveness of their 'Carob Jam' lure in attracting a wide range of beetles.
The new Safestore Multi Species Trap also uses this lure, plus a couple of pheromones and wheat germ oil. Designed to keep out dust, this is probably more appropriate in food factories, but would be effective in grain stores too.
Above should be available from 'all good suppliers'.
The 'Carob Jam' lure developed by CSL was derived from the net bag containing carobs and cereals which has been used for years as a monitor for grain beetles. I believe that this product is also still available, though I'm not sure from whom.
The new 'MoBe Moat' may also be of use as a monitor/temporary barrier in this sort of situation. It is effectively a very long (18m)glue board, though should be used selectively and in accordance with BPCA Guidelines where mice are present. Available from Barrettine.
Reply author: nigel
Replied on: 01 Apr 2006 11:13:25
Message:
Just out of interest and slightly of thread but along the lines, does anyone know of any studies done here in the UK in to the properties of natural products such as Neem tree oil as a preventative rather than as a treatment for protecting stored products such as grain?
I know in other countries leaves from this tree are added to the commodity as it is being placed in storage to act as a natural product to prevent infestations in rice and the like. Has any supplier or manufacturer carried out tests on such a product?
Reply author: Dusty
Replied on: 02 Apr 2006 01:13:09
Message:
Not UK but Oz Nigel. There seems some opposition to the tree in Australia due to its invasive nature
http://www.weeds.crc.org.au/documents/awm_209033_n_letter_ed1.pdf
There are a few plantations and some research is taking place, but it would appear the tree hugging fraternity has adopted Neem as almost better than a Second Coming, so my guess is legitimate research will fizzle out
Don't feed them, get Rid of them
Reply author: Iain
Replied on: 02 Apr 2006 15:06:01
Message:
Some work was carried out on Neem a while ago by AgriSense. No idea where it ended up, but it might be worth givig their Tecnical Manager a ring.
He's an Ozzie by the name of Enzo Casagrande.
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