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Lawrie
Starting Member

United Kingdom
9 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2006 :  14:05:55  Show Profile  Visit Lawrie's Homepage  Reply with Quote

At the risk of putting the cat amongst the pigeons, if we do a trial and prove it works, will you use them?

Getting used to the stimulus, whether it is sound or magnetic fields, is termed habituation by biologists. Testing has to be long enough to see if habituation occurs. In rodents, it appears to occur within a couple of days, which is why our lab trials always continue for at least 10 days with the unit on. The graph we show pest controllers illustrates this off-on-off cycle nicely.

The problem with ultrasonics is, as I see it, threefold: i) the distance that the sound travels is limited and obstructed easily by furniture and walls; ii) at the power levels it is being used, it probably deafens the mice, and this will interfere with their communication, but once deafened, they will continue to frequent the area if there is a food attractant present, and iii) I can find no research to show their working under lab-controlled conditions; Dr Havers has tested some ultrasound units and found them ineffective. You do need to be careful, as there 'may' be a unit out there that has had proper testing and research and works when deployed in a certain way. We have never found it though.

But Boxing Hare, you need to be clear that our units are not ultrasonic ones.

I did read about male mice 'singing' and baby mice calling to their parents with high-pitched squeaks, and it is possible that this communication could be interfered with, but it would need research into the frequencies that the mice are using so that an ultrasonic device could properly drown it out. I do not think the manufacturers in China have bothered with that, but I may be wrong; and without matching the frequency, it would be like us having a conversation while music was playing in the background; our (and rodents') brains are good enough to separate the message from the background noise.

With regard to affecting other species, no-one from over 4 million domestic sales has said anything was affected by the device, and we advise that the electromagnetic field our unit generates affects only rodents, but we don't recommend using the domestic version if there are rodent pets such as gerbils, hamsters, etc. in the house. It may be that the physiology of non-rodents is substantially different, or the fact that other animals keep further away from the walls where the field is present reduce the likely effect.

Anyway, many thanks to Boxing Hare for raising the issue, and I hope my little essay has helped everyone realise that the two effects (ultrasonic and electromagnetic) are complex and different, and that we are confident our patented Green Shield devices work when properly deployed in most cases. If anyone has a potential customer site with perennial rodent problems, please get in touch and we can see if a trial will benefit them.





Lawrie Siteman
Green Shield Ltd
www.greenshield.com
0800 0 811 817
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nigel
Hyperactive Member

808 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2006 :  20:38:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As to using them? Not personally.
I would still rely on giving the customers the same advice your very own website already gives, if you do not want rats, stop feeding them and make sure your property is well maintained so the little blitters can not get in in the first place. With just those two bits of advice you can sort out the majority of rat problems.
But if proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they geniunely "do what they say on the tin", I would have no problems reccommending them.
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Dusty
Hyperactive Member

Australia
970 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2006 :  23:25:22  Show Profile  Visit Dusty's Homepage  Reply with Quote
For an electro magnetic device to create a magnetic field, it still requires a few turns of wire over a soft iron core to provide an induced voltage.
To be honest, I dont see how a couple of strands of copper wire without the iron core are able to set up a magnetic field, let alone one that rodents are distressed by.

Don't feed them, get Rid of them
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Gamekeeper
Senior Member

United Kingdom
372 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2006 :  14:35:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"Ultrasonic Devices - Do They Work? - A Challenge!". Well chaps, they must do because they are sponsoring this site !!!

Fid Def
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The Spotlight Kid
Moderator

1495 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2006 :  21:36:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
can rats hear ultrasonic ????
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MickeyMan
New Member

12 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2006 :  08:33:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In my experience the majority of customers interested in these devices are those who merely want to cut costs and not address the real issues in their business, such as effective cleaning, proofing etc.

IMHO it's unlikely that most will address these issues and infestations within their premises will go unchecked. In the long run it's good news for pesties, as they will undoubtedly get a large amount of disgruntled customers coming back cap in hand.


Edited by - MickeyMan on 20 Sep 2006 08:34:42
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Fed Up
Starting Member

United Kingdom
7 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2006 :  12:54:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello,

Ok, let me tell you that ultrasonic and electromagnetic devices do not work. or at least ,they do not work in my house.
Just found baby mice nest behind one of my skirting board, and less than a meter away, I have a lentex Pest X device plugged in. And as i am typing, I can here gnawing ,still behind the same skirting board.
I have two Lentex PestX, priced £37.50 (incl. Vat, though) plugged in my top floor, they are supposed to cover a 4 bedroom house.
So, do they work ? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

If the gentleman from Greenshield want to try their electromagnetic devices, which I supposed are the same as Lentex, well, I have the perfect site for that. ten terraced houses, all connected and infested with mice, all 3-4 bedroom, next to a canal , with an abandonned small building site at the back, and a nearly derelict huge building in front, with huge garbage bins too from the council estate on the side.
Up to the challenge to see if all ten house can be mice free just with the electromagnetic devices ??


Why do pests always look cute in cartoons ???
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pestguard1
Junior Member

United Kingdom
52 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2006 :  13:14:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I seem to remember reading a scientific article report in Pest Control News some time back as to the use of these ultrasonic devices ..and there claims were in-conclusive, and it all depended on the environment they were being used in ....maybe someone has a back copy of the said article ..........or get in touch with Killgerm for one.
I have come across customers who have purchased in excess of 50 ultra sonic mole scarers............and non work for them .........."what a total waste of money they say" ..........I said "why buy so many if they dont work "......."well we might just get one that does work ".............the mind boggles at some folk...........
yet I have customers who sware by them...........so different conditions may work for some people.

Brian
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vermincontrol
Senior Member

United Kingdom
209 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2006 :  17:12:33  Show Profile  Visit vermincontrol's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I have come accross the same regarding moles.

Steve
It Has 2 Be Done Pest Control
www.ithas2bedone.co.uk
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Lawrie
Starting Member

United Kingdom
9 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2006 :  22:20:00  Show Profile  Visit Lawrie's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Responding to 'Fed Up's' comments, I have found that the common misconception by people who have bought so-called electromagnetic devices is that when they don't work, it proves to them that the whole idea of electromagnetic devices to repel rodents is invalid, and all devices won't work. It would be like my saying that if you put poison down in a location, and the infestation is still there on your return, all poisons must be useless. The variables are so great, with the layout of the building, the attractants, the wiring, and the rodent behaviour, even before you get to the point of discussing what the difference is between the various devices. Plus of course, the confusion between ultrasonic and electromagnetic devices. I have said before in this forum that I do not believe that ultrasonics work, and more due to the physics of ultrasound propagation than anything else. In addition, the manufacturers in China are not interested in whether something works, only whether it is a gimmick enough to sell in its thousands. And the distributors in this country and elsewhere are happy to play along. If you try to find a single manufacturer or distributor doing as much research into the effect as we are, I will be extremely surprised. Which means that we have a method of deploying the commercial devices which requires attention to detail, and we give a 30 day trial to ensure that it works. For the domestic units, the profit margin is not enough to allow inspections prior to sale, so we offer a 60 day money back guarantee, in case the wiring is not up to it, or the deployment is not done according to the instructions and the customer isn't happy. But an eminent pest biologist has done the studies and this is the first time that he says he has seen an effect in the lab. And he has done tests on ultrasonic devices in the past without success. You are quite welcome to talk to him, I will give you his details if you contact me offline.
With regard to 'Fed Up's' comment that our units are the same as Lentek, I can tell him positively that our units are completely different; we have several patents on our devices to prevent others copying their function; as for his request to try our units on his difficult location, I invite him to send his contact details to us and we will see if we can arrange something; he can either call on 0800 0 811 817 or email tom.flinn@greenshield.com and chat through the issue.
But like we say to all our customers, these devices are an additional weapon in the armoury in the war against rodents, not a replacement for them. You still have to have sound pest control principles in place.

Lawrie Siteman
Green Shield Ltd
www.greenshield.com
0800 0 811 817
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Dusty
Hyperactive Member

Australia
970 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2006 :  23:58:11  Show Profile  Visit Dusty's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hare, first year psychology students can confirm your theory on rats becoming accustomed to the ultrasonics.It does happen, and rats being very adaptable, it happens quickly. If you read the blurb that comes with many of these products and look at the section re pets, it will reassure you that the pet will become used to the sound/frequencey.
Perhaps if the units were designed to randomly alter the output frequency throughout the relevant spectrum, preventing the rats becoming accustomed to the unit, it might have a chance of being as useful as claimed.
Be reassured, you wont be out of a job for a while yet.

Don't feed them, get Rid of them
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Fed Up
Starting Member

United Kingdom
7 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2006 :  13:05:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello,

Oh, I was not talking about just the ultrasonic devices. i was talking about the Electro-magnetic & ultrasonic devices which are extremely expensive. Again, I bought two from Lentex, and I thought that Lentex with their PestX and pestx Deluxe (priced sometimes at £57.00 odd pounds) were the state of the art when it comes to rodent repellers, because when you google ''electromagnetic rodent repellers'', they always come top of the search and they know very well how to sell their stuff and they also say that they are the only ones on the market who allow their devices to be tested indenpendantly and the devices work and it is why they offer 45 days no quibble money back guarantee. Therefore, it makes them a popular company.
Unfortunately, if you are like me, and there are millions of others who realise that they do not work, you do not send them back because psychologically, it makes you feel better that they are there. silly, I know, but it is the truth. And even sillier, you go out and buy and extra one, just in case two were not enough.
Oh, yes, and I checked by the way, and PestX are manufactured in China, with their patent pending.
Maybe it does work for some, but now, I believe it is psychological. When your electromagnetic (& ultrasonic) devices are plugged in, you relax and you actually stop looking for sign of rodent activities. Beleive me. And if by chance, you happen to see one passing through your house, you go back to the little leaflet you got with the plug, and read something like this '' you may see one mouse or rat (or whatever pest) but rest assured they will not nest nor stay, as they believe they are in an hostile environment''... well, if they (the mice or rats) thought that they were in an hostile environment, they would not have ventured so far, they are more clever than this.
And why did they then nest in my house ..

Honestly, I do not know about the devices from Greenshield and I thank you Mr Lawrie to accept to see if they will be of some use in my area.
Here is the thread I started when I was looking for advice.
http://www.pestcontrolportal.com/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=645

You will see that I am particular about leaving food stuff out and that I mop my kitchen floor if not every night, mostly every night and now, i bleach it too and that we blocked every point of entry. And upstairs, there is no food being allowed, so, why would the mice stay upstairs ?
In the room I have a Lentex Pest X plugged in (the electromagnetic & ultrasonic one) I still find mice droppings. And i have two of these plugged at opposite sides on the first floor. they still come.
Anyway , I am addressing the problem to my Housing Association and dh is going to the Health & Environment office this afternoon.
Mice are cute in fiels, but when I find mice droppings on the bed of my special needs child, believe me I freak out and I become quite sceptical about the ability of the electromagnetic devices.
But again, as I said before, to be fair, they may not just work in my house, for some reason. Because a friend of mine has a tiny weeny studio, I lent her a PestX and the same day, they vanished she said ... I don't know...
But for sure, I will email you my details..

thanks to everyone...

Why do pests always look cute in cartoons ???
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Fed Up
Starting Member

United Kingdom
7 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2006 :  13:12:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I do apologize,I did not imply that Lentex are the same as Greenshield by the way. Well, ok, I did a bit, but this is because I never knew about Greenshield until i discovered this forum. I only knew about Lentex because you see their name everywhere,in every pest control shop (incidentally, not here). But you are right, because Lentex did not work i assume that none of them will work. I would love to be proved wrong , because either the mice are leaving or it will be me. And I have this big feeling it will be me (no joke, I am dead scared of mice and spiders )

Why do pests always look cute in cartoons ???

Edited by - Fed Up on 09 Oct 2006 13:14:31
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docpepper
New Member

Australia
14 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2006 :  14:04:21  Show Profile  Visit docpepper's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Boxing Hare

I may be going over old ground, but I hope this topic will raise a number of thoughts and questions. It is a challenge to all suppliers of Ultrasonic Pest Repellers.

Everywhere I look now, I see adverts for ‘Ultrasonic Pest Controllers.’ You see them in magazines, on Ebay, in hardware stores and even on the TV auction / sale sites.

If these items are so good and work so well, why aren’t pest controllers using them?

I’ve been reading with interest the topic with regards to controlling rats in chicken sheds. Aren’t we ‘pesties’ missing something?
If the ultrasonic devices work – and the suppliers and sellers of these devices make astonishing claims that they do – then wouldn’t it be so easy to set up a ‘ring’ of these devices around the base of a chicken shed, with additional units in the sheds themselves. The ‘noise’ would thus disturb the rodents so much, they would all leave the chicken shed – wouldn’t they? Sounds so simple.
Think of all of the poison you’d save. The running costs would be almost zero. No more call-out charges for ‘pesties.’ The answer appears to be so obvious.
What are we missing?

And as for the housing market, wouldn’t all ‘New Build’ home developers install these units as standard in their new homes? One installed in the loft would repel all wasps and cluster flies and a number of alternative units upstairs and down would ensure the home was never infested with rodents, cockroaches or fleas ever again, regardless of how filthy they were.

And then of course commercial kitchens, warehouses, pubs, hotels, etc.
You could leave as much debris, rubbish and filth about and the rodents, cockroaches and everything else would simply ‘run’ away (don’t know where too though if the whole country had them installed!) and all commercial and retail premises would be pest free – forever, without the need for poisons and insecticides polluting the environment.

So what are we missing?

Do these devices really work and the pest control industry is in denial, potentially seeing the end of our business?

Or could it be that they don’t work?

If they don’t work, would the sale of such devices contravene the Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994 – primarily that the goods are not ‘fit for purpose’?

If these items don’t work – then how come they are being sold so openly?

As an engineer originally by training and relatively new to this business, I like to think I have an 'open mind' and I am always open to new ideas and developments and will openly listen to advice – good or bad – and happily try out a wide range of means and methods to control pests, learning as I go. So I wouldn't instantly 'dismiss' these 'new fangled gadgets' like others who've been in the business for years might, but instead review them with interest.

So they main point of this topic is to issue a challenge to any manufacturer or supplier of these items.

If these Ultrasonic Pest Controllers are so good, work so well, then would anyone be willing to supply a large number on a genuine ‘field trial’ in an application such as a commercial chicken shed, to prove once and for all whether these items work?

If they do, then Britain will be a ‘cleaner’ place to live and we will be able eliminate pests once and for all from our shores (although god knows where all the rodents and bugs will go to live?!)

If they don’t work – then when is someone in authority – even may I be so bold as to say, someone senior from the NPTA or BPCA - going to raise this issue with a senior politician, to bring power to bear down on companies selling such items as being ‘fraudulent’ and thus contravening a whole cost of sales related acts.

So come on all you suppliers of Ultrasonic devices – Is anyone brave enough to prove their units actually work, take the challenge and rid a poultry unit of all its rats, by the use of Ultrasonic devices?


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docpepper
New Member

Australia
14 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2006 :  14:14:22  Show Profile  Visit docpepper's Homepage  Reply with Quote
To Boxing Hare - your post is great - your are correct about Ultrasonic Pest Repellers - THEY DO NOT WORK.
However, I would like to inform you of a product that is manufactured in Australia called Plug-In Pest Free. I believe that is the only product in the world that has scientific evidence to prove this fact. Studies were done at a leading Australian University and in fact the ACCC in Australia (similar organisation to your FTC)took to task manufacturers of these type of products a few years ago.
Pest Free produced their scientific evidence and the Court in Australia awarded costs against the ACCC and therefore Pest Free Australia can claim their product works with rats, mice and cockroaches and is proven by Australia Court of Law that we can state this fact.
More details about product can be viewed at http://www.pestfree.com.au and should you require any information please contact me at david@pestfree.com.au and I will happily provide you with the evidence.
In fact, Australia's largest supermarket chain install commercial units in their stores along with many pubs, clubs, restaurants, resorts and international fast food chains.

I do hope to hear from any members of this forum as we are changing the pest control industry in Australia and believe you me the Pest Conrollers using toxic chemicals are not too happy with the Company
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docpepper
New Member

Australia
14 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2006 :  03:15:57  Show Profile  Visit docpepper's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gamekeeper

I think most of us know these things don't work. My understanding on it was that the first manufacturer of these devices WAS taken to court and prosecuted because the product was proven to be completely ineffective. Under what law they were prosecuted under, I don't know. Perhaps someone's attention needs to be drawn to the suppliers of the gadgets to chase after them with some more court cases. Either way the general public need to be made aware that they are wasting their money if they buy this product

Fid Def

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DeeS
Starting Member

USA
2 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2006 :  02:58:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
[quote]Originally posted by Boxing Hare

I may be going over old ground, but I hope this topic will raise a number of thoughts and questions. It is a challenge to all suppliers of Ultrasonic Pest Repellers.

Everywhere I look now, I see adverts for ‘Ultrasonic Pest Controllers.’ You see them in magazines, on Ebay, in hardware stores and even on the TV auction / sale sites.

If these items are so good and work so well, why aren’t pest controllers using them?

I’ve been reading with interest the topic with regards to controlling rats in chicken sheds. Aren’t we ‘pesties’ missing something?
If the ultrasonic devices work – and the suppliers and sellers of these devices make astonishing claims that they do – then wouldn’t it be so easy to set up a ‘ring’ of these devices around the base of a chicken shed, with additional units in the sheds themselves. The ‘noise’ would thus disturb the rodents so much, they would all leave the chicken shed – wouldn’t they? Sounds so simple.
Think of all of the poison you’d save. The running costs would be almost zero. No more call-out charges for ‘pesties.’ The answer appears to be so obvious.
What are we missing?

And as for the housing market, wouldn’t all ‘New Build’ home developers install these units as standard in their new homes? One installed in the loft would repel all wasps and cluster flies and a number of alternative units upstairs and down would ensure the home was never infested with rodents, cockroaches or fleas ever again, regardless of how filthy they were.

And then of course commercial kitchens, warehouses, pubs, hotels, etc.
You could leave as much debris, rubbish and filth about and the rodents, cockroaches and everything else would simply ‘run’ away (don’t know where too though if the whole country had them installed!) and all commercial and retail premises would be pest free – forever, without the need for poisons and insecticides polluting the environment.

So what are we missing?

Do these devices really work and the pest control industry is in denial, potentially seeing the end of our business?

Or could it be that they don’t work?

If they don’t work, would the sale of such devices contravene the Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994 – primarily that the goods are not ‘fit for purpose’?

If these items don’t work – then how come they are being sold so openly?

As an engineer originally by training and relatively new to this business, I like to think I have an 'open mind' and I am always open to new ideas and developments and will openly listen to advice – good or bad – and happily try out a wide range of means and methods to control pests, learning as I go. So I wouldn't instantly 'dismiss' these 'new fangled gadgets' like others who've been in the business for years might, but instead review them with interest.

So they main point of this topic is to issue a challenge to any manufacturer or supplier of these items.

If these Ultrasonic Pest Controllers are so good, work so well, then would anyone be willing to supply a large number on a genuine ‘field trial’ in an application such as a commercial chicken shed, to prove once and for all whether these items work?

If they do, then Britain will be a ‘cleaner’ place to live and we will be able eliminate pests once and for all from our shores (although god knows where all the rodents and bugs will go to live?!)

If they don’t work – then when is someone in authority – even may I be so bold as to say, someone senior from the NPTA or BPCA - going to raise this issue with a senior politician, to bring power to bear down on companies selling such items as being ‘fraudulent’ and thus contravening a whole cost of sales related acts.

So come on all you suppliers of Ultrasonic devices – Is anyone brave enough to prove their units actually work, take the challenge and rid a poultry unit of all its rats, by the use of Ultrasonic devices?

[


I'm having a problem with small bugs particular on clothes, recently worn, I purchased one of those ultrasound pest controls called Pest Free, I placed the pest free in the closet and after almost two weeks discovered it doesn't work, at least for what I'm trying to get rid of so I returned the product for a refund and currently using borax for now and checking all my clothes for bugs before I put them on
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docpepper
New Member

Australia
14 Posts

Posted - 09 Dec 2006 :  06:25:10  Show Profile  Visit docpepper's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Boxing Hare

I may be going over old ground, but I hope this topic will raise a number of thoughts and questions. It is a challenge to all suppliers of Ultrasonic Pest Repellers.

Everywhere I look now, I see adverts for ‘Ultrasonic Pest Controllers.’ You see them in magazines, on Ebay, in hardware stores and even on the TV auction / sale sites.

If these items are so good and work so well, why aren’t pest controllers using them?

I’ve been reading with interest the topic with regards to controlling rats in chicken sheds. Aren’t we ‘pesties’ missing something?
If the ultrasonic devices work – and the suppliers and sellers of these devices make astonishing claims that they do – then wouldn’t it be so easy to set up a ‘ring’ of these devices around the base of a chicken shed, with additional units in the sheds themselves. The ‘noise’ would thus disturb the rodents so much, they would all leave the chicken shed – wouldn’t they? Sounds so simple.
Think of all of the poison you’d save. The running costs would be almost zero. No more call-out charges for ‘pesties.’ The answer appears to be so obvious.
What are we missing?

And as for the housing market, wouldn’t all ‘New Build’ home developers install these units as standard in their new homes? One installed in the loft would repel all wasps and cluster flies and a number of alternative units upstairs and down would ensure the home was never infested with rodents, cockroaches or fleas ever again, regardless of how filthy they were.

And then of course commercial kitchens, warehouses, pubs, hotels, etc.
You could leave as much debris, rubbish and filth about and the rodents, cockroaches and everything else would simply ‘run’ away (don’t know where too though if the whole country had them installed!) and all commercial and retail premises would be pest free – forever, without the need for poisons and insecticides polluting the environment.

So what are we missing?

Do these devices really work and the pest control industry is in denial, potentially seeing the end of our business?

Or could it be that they don’t work?

If they don’t work, would the sale of such devices contravene the Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994 – primarily that the goods are not ‘fit for purpose’?

If these items don’t work – then how come they are being sold so openly?

As an engineer originally by training and relatively new to this business, I like to think I have an 'open mind' and I am always open to new ideas and developments and will openly listen to advice – good or bad – and happily try out a wide range of means and methods to control pests, learning as I go. So I wouldn't instantly 'dismiss' these 'new fangled gadgets' like others who've been in the business for years might, but instead review them with interest.

So they main point of this topic is to issue a challenge to any manufacturer or supplier of these items.

If these Ultrasonic Pest Controllers are so good, work so well, then would anyone be willing to supply a large number on a genuine ‘field trial’ in an application such as a commercial chicken shed, to prove once and for all whether these items work?

If they do, then Britain will be a ‘cleaner’ place to live and we will be able eliminate pests once and for all from our shores (although god knows where all the rodents and bugs will go to live?!)

If they don’t work – then when is someone in authority – even may I be so bold as to say, someone senior from the NPTA or BPCA - going to raise this issue with a senior politician, to bring power to bear down on companies selling such items as being ‘fraudulent’ and thus contravening a whole cost of sales related acts.

So come on all you suppliers of Ultrasonic devices – Is anyone brave enough to prove their units actually work, take the challenge and rid a poultry unit of all its rats, by the use of Ultrasonic devices?


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Iain
Moderator

United Kingdom
772 Posts

Posted - 09 Dec 2006 :  09:42:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's still advertising.

We let you run with the above string for 'interest's sake' - now you are blatantly using this forum to solicit distributors for your products.

I work for a distributor and I'm not allowed to advertise my products in this Forum - so why should you?

As a distributor, it could be argued that I have a vested interest in deleting you, so I will await reactions from others. If they agree with me that you should obey the same Forum rules as everyone else, you're toast.
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ben
Senior Member

United Kingdom
202 Posts

Posted - 09 Dec 2006 :  14:14:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
toast him,lol


you learn as you go
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