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The Spotlight Kid
Hyperactive Member
731 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Apr 2008 : 22:43:13
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Hypothetical dilema:
PCT gets called to squirrels in loft.
Sets 2 Kanias on Tuesday, customer agrees to check traps every day.
Customer then tells PCT they are going on holiday on Saturday for a week.
PCT tells customer he will call round on Friday (if squirrels still not caught) and disable traps until return.
Customer says he can't have squirrels loose in roof for a week chewing wiring and causing a fire risk without some control measures in place.
PCT scratches head and nods in agreement but the law is clear and often an ass.
Question: is there a common-sense answer that doesn't put the customer's house and contents at risk of fire and also protects PCT's legal position? Mitigating circumstances?
Customer has never seen squirrels outside and entry point is not obvious nor is route in so outside cage trapping would be very hit and miss. |
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Fidgety
Junior Member
33 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2008 : 23:01:42
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It's got to be the cage trap option - your responsibility is to comply with the law! How about fixing the Kanias in a likely "route" outside the building? You could also turn a few quid by offering house sitting service, check the traps, drink his beer and watch his big telly!! |
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Bob Staines
Senior Member
Botswana
242 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 09:19:49
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do break back traps need checking everyday???
i thought live traps and stickies had to be checked every day.
R dont check kanias everyday..............
what is the risk of a dead body in a trap? apart from smell |
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Fenn Man
Hyperactive Member
Ireland
551 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 18:08:20
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Far as I recall; Under british law per se, the daily checking of a trap is an ingrained 'Code of good practice' issue. I don't Think any law actually stipulates outright and in black and white that one Must Check religiously every dawn and dusk.
Of course, get into cage traps and ye looking at a 'cruelty' issue.
Main danger, as I see it, would be an unthinkable serise of quirk circumstances where by, say; The Kania fires but - miraculously - doesn't kill the squirrel outright, there and then. Then a passing Arsepca idiot forces an entry into that home and goes up into the loft and finds the live catch. Private prosecution guaranteed.
But let's keep this within the realms of realism .....
I'd set the Kanias.
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The Spotlight Kid
Hyperactive Member
731 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 21:08:49
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Thanks Fenn, that whole piece was worth it just for Arsepca
So can anyone confirm whether it is law or best practice with spring traps? |
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Bob Staines
Senior Member
Botswana
242 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 08:39:24
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So can anyone confirm whether it is law or best practice with spring traps?
what did your training tell you??
would you go back daily and check 10 snappee traps laid for rats? or is it just squirrels that get the gold service? |
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Tomo
Junior Member
United Kingdom
20 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 15:52:59
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Do a risk assessment?
1/ could the squirrels chew wiring while owners are on holiday?
2/ Could this cause a house fire?
3/ could this put lives at risk?
4/ Is it safe to leave a set trap in the loft (will anyone be likely to tamper with it while the owners on leave)?
5/ How likely is neglecting to check the trap (until the owners return) to cause the squirrels to suffer?
Are you trained ? Therefore I will leave you to work the rest out for yourself!
Answers on a postcard to Arsepca
Regard's Tomo |
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dorsetogg
Junior Member
United Kingdom
35 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 18:25:18
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Hi Spotlight,
Get this problem a few times during the year( lots of riches in the new forest area)plenty of holidays etc.I get a key and alarm number and job done.
Regards the ogg. |
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Dog-rat
Senior Member
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 19:53:23
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Slightly Different but along the same lines, i have often thought a camera system would be a good way of checking traps until now price has been a bit steep but now
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=223420&source;=1&DOY;=25m4
Says it can be picked up at 300 metres ? from camera
stick trap in loft, camera points at trap, pull up in drive switch monitor on bingo trap checked ! |
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Tomo
Junior Member
United Kingdom
20 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2008 : 06:13:08
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"Advice and guidance can be negated if a suitable risk assessment can justify and therefore qualify the action taken by the PCO".
You would in other words need to be in a strong position to justify your actions or inactions.
However any thing written on product labels that fall within the Statutory Box doesn�t have this flexibility for discretion and must be followed in ALL circumstances.
A sample risk assessment may for example be as follows.
1/ could the squirrels chew wiring while owners are on holiday?
2/ Could this cause a house fire?
3/ could this put lives at risk?
4/ Is it safe to leave a set trap in the loft (will anyone be likely to tamper with it while the owners on leave)?
5/ How likely is neglecting to check the trap (until the owners return) to cause the squirrels to suffer?
In this particular set of circumstances (and depending upon the answers� to the above) I would be happy to leave a trap until able to check.
(;
Regard's Tomo |
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Fenn Man
Hyperactive Member
Ireland
551 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2008 : 04:03:11
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quote:
Originally posted by The Spotlight Kid
So can anyone confirm whether it is law or best practice with spring traps?
The Protection of Animals Act 1911 Section 10
" Any person who sets, or causes or procures to be set, any spring trap for the purpose of catching any hare or rabbit, or which is so placed as to be likely to catch any hare or rabbit, shall inspect, or cause some competent person to inspect, the trap at reasonable intervals of time and at least once every day between sunrise and sunset, and, if any person shall fail to comply with the provisions of this section, he shall be liable, upon summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding [level 1 on the standard scale]. "
As far as I'm aware, this matter is not further covered by the Pests Act, 1954 nor Any of the Spring Traps Approval Orders since.
Wildlife and Countryside Act, coming 'between' those two is, of course, a mine field. Quite honestly, it's a bit late right now for me to go playing hop scotch on any mine fields. But the above, POA Sect. 10 is the most widely Misquoted piece of legislation refering to this matter. Blame BASC. They seem to have set the trend. Now people find it on their site and run around spouting it.
But, regardless, we have an Ethical duty; If we put a trap down? We damn well should inspect it at least daily.
But, even that ethic needs to be weighed against paralell and possibly conflicting / contradictory ethics, such as Tomo is indicating above there.
Dare I summarise by suggesting one use ones common sense? What's the risk of a Kania catching a squirrel by a foot and holding him to dehydrate, compared to that of the uncaught squirrel destroying property and endangering lives? I mean; He could do. That's why we have to catch him in the first place, isn't it?
I repeat: I'd set the Kania's.
What say those of ye who provide us with our Training |
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The Spotlight Kid
Hyperactive Member
731 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2008 : 09:38:38
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That's the great thing about stirring up a hornet's nest; It often produces questions and debate far more involved than any course can offer. I think we all find the mishmash* of acts and regs and orders which contradict or take priority over each other very confusing. Often these are not even intended explicitly for pest control ie The Wildlife and Countryside Act.
If my hypothetical question was asked in an exam we would probably all know what the "expected" answer should be to "pass". In the real world where common sense prevails but is an often under used tool of pest control (because we are too busy looking over our shoulders all the time) the exam paper may not be much use.
* Mishmash - n informal a hothpotch or jumble.
* Hotchpotch - n a mixture composed of many unrelated parts; a jumble.
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Tomo
Junior Member
United Kingdom
20 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2008 : 17:26:19
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Statutory Instruments
2007 No. 2708
Animals, ENGLAND
prevention of cruelty
The Spring Traps Approval (Variation) (England) Order 2007
Made
11th September 2007
Coming into force
1st October 2007
The Secretary of State, in exercise of the powers conferred by section 8(3) and (7) of the Pests Act 1954(1) and now vested in him(2), makes the following Order:
Citation, commencement and application
1.�(1) This Order may be cited as the Spring Traps Approval (Variation) (England) Order 2007 and shall come into force on 1st October 2007.
(2) This Order applies in relation to England only(3).
Variation of principal Order
2. In the Spring Traps Approval Order 1995(4)�
(a) in the Schedule�
(i) at the beginning, insert the words �Part 1� and entitle that Part �England and Wales�; and
(ii) at the end, insert� �Part 2 England
Column (1) Type and make of trap
Kania Trap 2500 manufactured by or under the authority of the C E Kania Corporation, 124-21, 10405, Jasper Avenue, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. The trap shall be used only for the purpose of killing edible dormice (glis glis)(5), grey squirrels, mice, mink, rabbits, rats, stoats and weasels.
Column (2) Conditions
The trap must be set in a natural or artificial tunnel which is suitable for minimising the chances of injuring or killing non-target species whilst not compromising the capture and killing of target species.
Regard's Tomo |
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dorsetogg
Junior Member
United Kingdom
35 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2008 : 17:54:52
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| YYYYYes! and your point? |
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The Spotlight Kid
Hyperactive Member
731 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2008 : 18:05:40
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| It doesn't say check traps daily. That is the point of this thread to establish what LAW, if any, requires us to check traps daily. Laws and best practice being two different things of course. |
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Fenn Man
Hyperactive Member
Ireland
551 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2008 : 20:02:01
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Exactly, Spots. I too could have c/p'd half of Google onto this place. What's the point? None of it answers ye question (unless it Is buried inside the Epic Saga we know as the WCA, or I've mised some sneaky little law in my own life time and beyond?)
Maybe, come monday, the Suppliers / Training Providers will be back and able to call their own people to answer this one, once and for all for us?
Mheanwhile, whilst not wanting to bend or distract from the thrust of this great and worthwhile Thread; That " Natural or artificial tunnel " issue could use some examination too.
Care to kick That one off, mate? 'What, in law, constitutes a suitable " Artificial Tunnel "?'.
Wisp of grass we so often see flicked over a body gripper aimed at rabbits certainly doesn't. Proven in a british court of law already. How about the roof of a house? What else? Where's our reliable, Factual information? |
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The Spotlight Kid
Hyperactive Member
731 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2008 : 21:10:27
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Well now Fenn. Firstly how many people use tunnels with Kanias??
The use of a Kania on a tree would require a more robust tunnel than one in a loft.
Would a tunnel be required in a loft? As you say the roof is the tunnel.
Is the Kania a tunnel? A bit like a Fenn in a metal box.
The Spring Traps Approval Order says use a tunnel with a Kania.
What have you started now? |
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Adeagus
Starting Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2008 : 21:11:46
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| They are designed to kill and so long as you as a professional have set them correctly they do not need to be checked daily. The rabbit thing was originally to discourage poaching - daylight you see. |
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Fenn Man
Hyperactive Member
Ireland
551 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2008 : 00:13:35
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If I'm not mistaken, Spots; The bit about adding a tunnel to ones Kania is a new stitch on, isn't it? I don't keep my finger on the pulse so much now as your laws don't apply in my country. I do remember it never used to mention tunnels for Kania's. Now it's more like tunnels with everything. Perhaps the desk jockey who dreamed that one up could explain it to ye?
Regards trees Vs. lofts? Working by one premise, both situations could equelly merit this semi mythical 'Tunnel'.
The premise being that a Starling could fire that trap and thus get harmed. Starlings get in trees. They also get in lofts. What protection does a roof give to a Starling inside it and getting up close and personal with a loaded Kania?
Did I say the roof is an acceptable tunnel? If so, I didn't mean to say so authoratively. I can't spot it now, but I'd have been either asking - because I suspect someone covered that question before and can't remember the up shot. Or else I'd have been speaking figuratively. As in 'Christ; Ye have a five sided bloody great structure round the trap ~ How much more can they ask?'. But there's still that nesting Starling. And I'm still not aware of a test case proving that a 'naked' trap in a roof space is acceptable.
Best bit of all in all this ye know? I've never even handled, let alone set a bloody Kania in my life! Never posessed one. Never likely too. Couldn't possibly use them here because we're plagued with Pine Martens and they're protected.
That's why I need to pose the Starling question. I genuinely have no idea if a bird could fire a Kania. But, if one could? I'd love to see that same desk jocky figure out a tunnel which would permit a squirrel without allowing a bird in.
No, I'm only here to enjoy the legal kick about. Kania's just the ball 
Anyway, What have I started now??? Cheeky sod!
Deathening silence from those bodies that will tell ye things and then pronounce ye Trained and Competant, I note .....
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squirrel traps-to check or not
