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Boxing Hare
Junior Member
United Kingdom
20 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 10:29:31
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I may be going over old ground, but I hope this topic will raise a number of thoughts and questions. It is a challenge to all suppliers of Ultrasonic Pest Repellers.
Everywhere I look now, I see adverts for �Ultrasonic Pest Controllers.� You see them in magazines, on Ebay, in hardware stores and even on the TV auction / sale sites.
If these items are so good and work so well, why aren�t pest controllers using them?
I�ve been reading with interest the topic with regards to controlling rats in chicken sheds. Aren�t we �pesties� missing something?
If the ultrasonic devices work � and the suppliers and sellers of these devices make astonishing claims that they do � then wouldn�t it be so easy to set up a �ring� of these devices around the base of a chicken shed, with additional units in the sheds themselves. The �noise� would thus disturb the rodents so much, they would all leave the chicken shed � wouldn�t they? Sounds so simple.
Think of all of the poison you�d save. The running costs would be almost zero. No more call-out charges for �pesties.� The answer appears to be so obvious.
What are we missing?
And as for the housing market, wouldn�t all �New Build� home developers install these units as standard in their new homes? One installed in the loft would repel all wasps and cluster flies and a number of alternative units upstairs and down would ensure the home was never infested with rodents, cockroaches or fleas ever again, regardless of how filthy they were.
And then of course commercial kitchens, warehouses, pubs, hotels, etc.
You could leave as much debris, rubbish and filth about and the rodents, cockroaches and everything else would simply �run� away (don�t know where too though if the whole country had them installed!) and all commercial and retail premises would be pest free � forever, without the need for poisons and insecticides polluting the environment.
So what are we missing?
Do these devices really work and the pest control industry is in denial, potentially seeing the end of our business?
Or could it be that they don�t work?
If they don�t work, would the sale of such devices contravene the Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994 � primarily that the goods are not �fit for purpose�?
If these items don�t work � then how come they are being sold so openly?
As an engineer originally by training and relatively new to this business, I like to think I have an 'open mind' and I am always open to new ideas and developments and will openly listen to advice � good or bad � and happily try out a wide range of means and methods to control pests, learning as I go. So I wouldn't instantly 'dismiss' these 'new fangled gadgets' like others who've been in the business for years might, but instead review them with interest.
So they main point of this topic is to issue a challenge to any manufacturer or supplier of these items.
If these Ultrasonic Pest Controllers are so good, work so well, then would anyone be willing to supply a large number on a genuine �field trial� in an application such as a commercial chicken shed, to prove once and for all whether these items work?
If they do, then Britain will be a �cleaner� place to live and we will be able eliminate pests once and for all from our shores (although god knows where all the rodents and bugs will go to live?!)
If they don�t work � then when is someone in authority � even may I be so bold as to say, someone senior from the NPTA or BPCA - going to raise this issue with a senior politician, to bring power to bear down on companies selling such items as being �fraudulent� and thus contravening a whole cost of sales related acts.
So come on all you suppliers of Ultrasonic devices � Is anyone brave enough to prove their units actually work, take the challenge and rid a poultry unit of all its rats, by the use of Ultrasonic devices?
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Gamekeeper
Senior Member
United Kingdom
116 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 11:14:01
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I think most of us know these things don't work. My understanding on it was that the first manufacturer of these devices WAS taken to court and prosecuted because the product was proven to be completely ineffective. Under what law they were prosecuted under, I don't know. Perhaps someone's attention needs to be drawn to the suppliers of the gadgets to chase after them with some more court cases. Either way the general public need to be made aware that they are wasting their money if they buy this product
Fid Def |
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blatta
Member
United Kingdom
90 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 11:56:59
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I have had some contact with this company before and even had some positive results feeding back from a 'reputable' Pest Control company.
http://www.greenshield.com/
http://www.greenshield.com/greenshield_faqs.pdf
We did not trial the system in the end. Anyone else tried them?
Their product is not an Ultrasonic System but uses changes in the electromagnetic field in wiring in the property.
Blatta |
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nigel
Senior Member
261 Posts |
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Bob Staines
Senior Member
United Kingdom
118 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 14:15:59
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when i was at bigR i was taught in no uncertain terms...these things dont work! Rento had apparently done independent testing and the technical data they unearthed was that it was a load of bollox.
now, however, they have put their name on one.....what does this mean?
it could mean nothing as money is and has always been rentos main objective, a bit like michael owen endorsing some crappy football game.
if they did work surely the LAs would use them. |
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Lawrie
Starting Member
United Kingdom
7 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 14:50:21
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As MD of Green Shield, we import and distribute a solely electromagnetic device for which we have lab tests (in the UK and US) as well as reference sites. I agree that ultrasonic devices are not effective, and we will not entertain selling them.
You will see adverts for ultrasonic pest controllers in many places as there is a ready market for the unknowing, and they are usually cheap enough to be bought and discarded when they don�t work without worrying about the cost. This is to say nothing about some units that exceed the maximum power output allowed by the European Union for ultrasound and which will be damaging hearing.
You should also know that there is a directive from the Advertising Standards Agency regarding the advertising of these products, what may or may not be claimed, but many resellers appear to pay no attention to it, and are happy to make grandiose claims without substantiation, and pay the consequences (if there are any) later. We however have embarked on a process of selling effective devices only, claiming only what we can substantiate, and have invested in R&D; to further refine the devices. I should point out that over 4 million of the domestic units have been sold in the States, with very few returns.
We looked at the devices being made in China, and spoke with manufacturers over there, but they are not at all interested in whether the devices work or lab testing, only what new gimmick can be added to make more sales and we despise such blatant cynicism.
Why aren�t pest controllers using them? Well, on the contrary we do have a number of pest control companies using and reselling them. We have sold the units into hotels, restaurants, coffee bars, schools, and theatres, all with great success. We sell domestic and commercial versions, but the commercial versions are only sold after a proper survey and testing of the reach of the field, and always come on a 30-day trial period to ensure they are positioned properly. The domestic versions are sold with a 60-day money back guarantee, as we cannot do a survey and there are some circumstances where the wiring and layout of the building may not be suitable. We sell the domestic version to pest control companies at a greatly discounted price to sell on to the public as further protection for them after a visit and also as an additional profit stream.
Regarding your point about a chicken farm, we have done an informal trial with our units on a turkey farm under the auspices of an independent biologist and it did reduce the incidence of rats, according to the workers there and the simple sandtrap measurements made.
As for the new build housing, we have not been in contact with many builders, but this is a good idea.
There is a lot of confusion about what works and doesn�t, and it is easy to say you tried it and it didn�t work, therefore nothing works. We believe we have a device and a protocol that when properly deployed works well. Those people selling magic bullets that solve all problems will only shoot themselves in the foot, unfortunately harming all of us in the pest control industry.
We have only tested our units with rodents and can make no claims about other pests, although we have anecdotal evidence about our units and other pests. This is not good enough to shout from the rooftops about how effective the units are, and as a professional company we would not do so, so for the time being, they are to prevent rodents only.
Regarding the point about leaving debris around, we have found that our devices are only another weapon in the fight against rodents, and normal housekeeping procedures must still be adhered to. Our devices disturb the rodents so that their feeding (and breeding) behaviours are affected, and after a period of time, they leave. Rather like your entering a haunted house � you wouldn�t like it but if the reason for being there was strong enough, you would put up with it for a time. Similarly, it is necessary to ensure that attractants for rodents are reduced, and also access points are blocked up. As we say, the device will not stop the inquisitive rodent, but will stop them nesting and re-infesting.
We have been elected members of the British Pest Control Association, and are keen to work with pest controllers as partners and to some extent have been successful. We are the only supplier of these devices to have ever been elected to the BPCA, and take our membership seriously. Many in the pest control industry (including the market leaders) are very conservative, but with the increasing European legislation against poisons, it is time to use fresh eyes and see us not as a threat, only as another arrow in the quiver.
Many of the devices on the market either do not work or work poorly � rodents can be habituated to the signal being given off in other devices but tests show that no habituation occurs in our devices. Our independent UK pilot study showed that the eating behaviour of a rodent was affected very clearly, and if you care to contact me directly, I can send you some information.
Regarding your challenge about a genuine �field trial�, we are currently looking for a site that is accessible to the independent biologist, who lives near Basingstoke, as this is the next step after the pilot study. If you have a site down there, please get in touch.
I would be delighted to help rid Britain of rodents and live in a cleaner world, and as for your question of where will they all go, as with all ecological niches, when the niche shrinks, so does the population.
Lawrie Siteman, MD Green Shield. 0800 0 811 817
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Bigbully
Junior Member
United Kingdom
28 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 14:50:50
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Some LAs do use them - to stop hoodies congregating outside post offices and such. Others use Frank Sinatra tapes - seems to work for some!
Boxing Hare - if they worked against rats in the chicken sheds just imagine the impact on the chickens!! |
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Bigbully
Junior Member
United Kingdom
28 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 14:53:11
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| PS the Hoody deterring device is called The Mosquito! |
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vermincontrol
Member
United Kingdom
83 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 16:13:51
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Lawrie
I am glad to read your reply to the thread.
i for one am sceptical about such devices but saying that i have been trying to find a supplier that can supply me at the right price so that i can test them wherever possible, i am often being asked for such devices but as upto now have not found anywhere to purchase them from a reputable company that knows what they are talking about.
i used to sell via a shop i had some electronic rodent repellers, they seemed to work for a while, but that could of been coincidence, i am often asked about electronic repllers as the customers do not want to meet a dead rodent in the morning on their front doorstep.
if you have any details that can be sent to me i may well be interested in the items mentioned. view my web page for details of how to contact me (but please not by phone i am too busy)
Steve
It Has 2 Be Done Pest Control
www.ithas2bedone.co.uk
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Lawrie
Starting Member
United Kingdom
7 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 16:38:42
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Steve, thanks for commenting; I have asked Tom Flinn, my sales manager, to email you some information.
Regarding Nigel's comment on the patent being the same as switching the lights on and off, it is of course more complicated than that, and involves something called the flyback effect to send the signal back through the mains. In addition, the period of oscillation is tuned to be most annoying to the rodents, and our device is still under patent, not an expired one. We hope our research will improve the efficiency and reach of the device even further.
Lawrie Siteman
Green Shield Ltd
www.greenshield.com
0800 0 811 817
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Gamekeeper
Senior Member
United Kingdom
116 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 16:42:51
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Yeah, right Big Bully, a lot of chicken sheds play music to encourage the chickens to relax and lay more eggs. I hate to think of the effect these rodent repellers would have
Fid Def |
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nigel
Senior Member
261 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 17:32:56
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In the interest of science, I have just carried out a basic, taught in the third year at secondary school physics experiement to see if the electromagnetic field in a live cable can cause a change to a pin floating on water (crude form of compass).
For this experiment a 1Kw kettle was used to increase the current in the cable (plus provide a cup of tea once I had finished), the pin was left to find North/South from the natural magnetic field of the earth, the electric cable was then placed across the float tank (the Mrs Pirex dish) at 90 degrees to the pin. No change to the magnetic field was noticed from the cables.
The power source (i.e the kettle) was switched on causing a power surge along the cable, the cable was held 25mm directly above the floating pin and no deviation of the direction of the pin was noticed.
The possition of the cable was moved (by this time the teabag was in the cup) and still no deviation was observed.
In order to be sure that a duff pin was not being used in this experiment a magnet (taken off the fridge) was moved towards the pin untill a definate movement of the pin was noticed, this movement occured at approx 60mm.
Conclussion of the experiment;
1/ An electric cable through which 1Kw of electricity is passing produces less electromagnetic energy than the earths own electromagnetic field.
2/ A fridge magnet producess a far greater magnetic field than 240 volts on a local area and is also greater than the earths own magnetic field for the same localized area.
3/ I make a great cup of tea. |
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Bob Staines
Senior Member
United Kingdom
118 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 17:45:54
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| sounds interesting Lawrie. i would be interested in testing for you with results being posted on forum. you can email me through www.pulsepestcontrol |
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Bob Staines
Senior Member
United Kingdom
118 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 17:47:07
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| soz....... thats .co.uk |
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Bob Staines
Senior Member
United Kingdom
118 Posts |
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Lawrie
Starting Member
United Kingdom
7 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 18:30:58
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Jason (Bob Staines) - thanks for the offer, are you located near Basingstoke? This field trial needs to be properly controlled and in order to get maximum benefit, an independent scientist is needed. I am sure you are aware of Dr Steven Havers, who has been doing the testing for us in the UK, and it is he who has asked for a location near to his base so that he can regularly visit to see activity on sand traps, etc.
Nigel, in your experiment, isn't the voltage alternating at 50 cycles, and therefore doesn't the magnetic field reverse itself 50 times a second? If so, it would not overcome the resistance of the water in the 1/50th of a second that it had to exert a force on the pin. If you use a gaussmeter as we do you can detect the magnetic field clearly enough.
If you would like some light reading in the form of a scientific article on possible effects of varying magnetic fields on the brain cells of rats, please let me know and I will forward it to you. I agree with you that the field strength is very small, but there is an effect on the behaviour of the rodent, and I would love to find out why.
Lawrie Siteman
Green Shield Ltd
www.greenshield.com
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nigel
Senior Member
261 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 19:22:01
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I did also try it with a DC voltage although agreed at a lower voltage, nothing.
Question; is it the electromagnetic pulse or the frequency of that pulse that affects the brain of the rats?
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Lawrie
Starting Member
United Kingdom
7 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 20:31:19
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It is very difficult to say; all the surveys report on the effect, and don't speculate on the reason for it. There simply is not enough data to create a theory yet. However, I would surmise that it is the rapidly changing field that causes the release of stressful chemicals in the rodent brain.
Lawrie Siteman
Green Shield Ltd
www.greenshield.com
0800 0 811 817
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nigel
Senior Member
261 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 20:50:41
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An earlier thread I started some time back was about infrasound and had anyone looked in to using it as a rodent repeler. We already know that animals react to infrasound, at about 18Hz it is possible to cause the human eye to vibrate and cause hallucinations, it is also consider to be one possible cause of sick building syndrome.
If the pulse has a frequency of 20Hz or below this would put it in the infrasound range, given that the domestic system is already as low as 50Hz, may be worth looking at. |
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Lawrie
Starting Member
United Kingdom
7 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2006 : 09:32:53
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If you saw Men in White on Sunday you would have seen them developing an infrasound generator to scare visitors to a haunted house, but it took up a lot of space. We looked at it briefly as a pigeon scarer but it is a) impossible to miniaturise and b) doesnt carry very far.
Lawrie Siteman
Green Shield Ltd
www.greenshield.com
0800 0 811 817 |
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Boxing Hare
Junior Member
United Kingdom
20 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2006 : 13:25:48
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Had hoped this topic may get people going, but hadn't expected potentially such a good response.
If a trial could be arranged, that would be brilliant and would be almost a case of 'put up or shut up.'
As mentioned, I like to keep an open mind on all things, and assumed there had to be some background to the whole 'Ultrasonic' theory, but was simply put off the overall negative press and also though the thought that all animals adapt to their environment.
People who live near railway lines and airports become unaware of the noise, whilst visting friends comment on the 'racket.' and how do they live with it.
Couldn't rodents also become 'accustomed' to such distruption caused by the 'pulse' of a magnetic change and return or remain in the locality. Just a thought.
A question for Lawrie, who has responded so well and I thank you for that;
I understand (rightly or wrongly) that rodents have a crude form of echo location and can communicate via ultrasonics. Do you believe that it is this facility in the rodent yours (an I assume the other 'ultrasonic devices on the market) affect and thus exploit?
I think this is a great subject and is one which I'm surprised hasn't (or doesn't appear to a new layman) to have been fully investigated. (Maybe wrong).
Very interesting topic and as Gamekeeper and Big Bully point out, would the 'pulse' affect other animals, such as chickens?
Look forward to further input from all. |
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Ultrasonic Devices - Do They Work? - A Challenge!
