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Iain
Moderator
United Kingdom
220 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 10:23:43
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This is a topic that is regularly raised whilst discussing other issues - so let's have it all out in the open, once and for all.
My contention is that the licencing of pest controllers in the UK is simply not going to happen. Period.
In Australia and the USA PCOs are licenced, but then termites are a significant problem in these countries. If the value of the nation's housing stock is in the hands of an industry, then it makes sense to regulate and licence that industry. Pest control is a much more important service to building owners (voters) there than it is here.
What killed this issue for me was a meeting of insect pheromone manufacturers I attended a couple of years ago. We had a guest speaker from the Cabinet Office. A Civil Servant working at the heart of Government Policy. He waxed long and lyrical about one of the central planks of current Government Policy - deregulation. He claimed that the Government could save huge sums of money - billions of �sterling - by deregulating just about everything. Deregulation and a move to self-regulation of just about every industry going. It was only going to be those industries that really, really needed Government control that were to be regulated in future.
So where does that leave our industry?
It will not matter one jot how much we might all want licencing in our industry, it will simply be seen by the 'Powers That Be' as a waste of tax-payer's money.
If we want to raise standards in our industry, we are going to have to do it ourselves.
What say you?
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NickA
Hyperactive Member
United Kingdom
797 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 10:36:18
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 I'm all in favour.
Re testing should be compulsory, no Grandfather rights.
The law has changed, chemicals and methods. CPD or similar though a good idea is only as good as the person doing it.I've seen people attend seminars at dinnertime, leave halfway through but they have the points.
Re test would be on your knowledge.
I would include trainers as well, when did they last do the job, qualifications,have them appraised.
But it will never happen unless a big incident occurs.
Pests are smart - We're smarter
www.rpcwildlife.co.uk |
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ABPest
Senior Member
United Kingdom
196 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 10:39:21
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Iain, would you care to post this question on the other forum, whose name I cannot mention.
Adrian. |
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NickA
Hyperactive Member
United Kingdom
797 Posts |
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The Spotlight Kid
Member
82 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 11:03:16
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Is there some reason why it can't be debated on this forum?
If we have to duplicate all the topics on both forums it could get a bit tedious I would have thought.(and I regularly watch both)
PS. Congratulations to Iain on his very sensible and balanced appraisal of his responsibilities as moderator. That is not to disagree with Dusty's concerns in any way I hasten to add, and no, this is not an attempt to awaken the locked post! |
Edited by - The Spotlight Kid on 18 Feb 2007 11:05:47 |
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ABPest
Senior Member
United Kingdom
196 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 11:16:03
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S.Kid, there are many people who do not post on this forum, who may have beneficial/useful views. It would also open the debate up to a wider audience.
Adrian. |
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The Spotlight Kid
Member
82 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 11:28:36
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| Any debate conducted in one room will be opened up more than a debate conducted in two seperate rooms. The latter case will probably produce two debates that head off in two seperate directions without any interaction. Perhaps we should all contribute to both forums on which ever post takes our fancy and forget existing "boundaries". I know we are in danger of getting off the original topic again but then that is the nature of the forum beast. |
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ABPest
Senior Member
United Kingdom
196 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 11:40:45
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I totally agree with you S.Kid. But the pesties who do not post on this site have their own valid reasons not to do so. I'm sure you wouldn't deny them the opportunity to contribute to this important debate.
Adrian.
PS this is starting another debate which is now best left to Iain. |
Edited by - ABPest on 18 Feb 2007 11:42:58 |
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NickA
Hyperactive Member
United Kingdom
797 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 11:50:53
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Whether it should also be debated at UKPCO is for Iain to post it there or even Adrian to do so.
But would you suggest a topic on your board that should also be raised here for our contributers knowledge?
I personally don't care whether you discuss it or not.
Pests are smart - We're smarter
www.rpcwildlife.co.uk |
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Dusty
Senior Member
Australia
435 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 12:16:27
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Iain, not sure where you got your advice on licencing in Australia, but you are waaaaaaaaaay off beam, and miss the entire point of pest control licencing. Termites mean absolutely zero in the relevance of licencing. Many pest controllers DO NOT have anything to do with termites.Somre by choice, some by circumstances and geography. The entire state of Tasmania and vast areas of Victoria do not not have problem termites, but the pesties are still licenced.
The central reason is that of stewardship. We all deal with pesticides and herbicides (possibly) that can make people rather ill or even kill them (an opening here for you Merlin?). This move is to ensure that those who handle such chemicals understand exactly how dangerous they are, forces them to be bound by regulations, has in place relevant punishments for breaches and provides the general public with a modicum of confidence that if they engage a pest controller, then they are in safe hands. (Some breaches will incur up to an $80,000 fine as well as loss of licence. Did I mention jail?
Even people who retail pesticides are obliged under legislation to undertake courses and become certificated in the safe handling of these products.
Perish the thought that it ever happens, but it will only need a death or two at the hands of one of your fool, instant pest controllers abusing or misusing pesticides and then see if it becomes an "it will never happen"
I can assure you, if it doesnt have a registered label then it cant be used. There would be no kuwaity ferret used in OZ
No skin off my nose if it does "never happpen" but if you ever want an even playing field where it has been guaranteed that every pest controller has received at least a minimum level of education, training and tuition, is capable of reading and heeding labels and MSDS sheets, has at least a half idea how to go about dealing with pests, and has something that can be taken away from them if they screw up, then licencing might not be a bad idea.
Might also stop some pesticides being sold to the public when they are not capable of using them, but vested interests may be another thread for another day
The colonies are not always wrong lol
Don't feed them, get Rid of them - visit us on www.ridpest.com.au |
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The Spotlight Kid
Member
82 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 13:14:25
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I think I agree with Nick and Dusty that a minimum level of training and then licencing is a good idea but I don't think it is something that we do in this country. I can think of very few professions that insist on licencing. Doctors and Vets, yes but not many of the service industries. When it comes to poor quality technicians and bad workmanship there are many professions that have the capability of death or destruction or both including Car/lorry Mechanics, Plumbers (CORGI only required for gas), Electricians (although part P has now theoretically removed the DIY element).
In this country, rather than compulsory licencing we tend to promote industry accepted entry qualifications which allows membership of professional bodies ie NPTA, BPCA, and the equivalents in the building trade, motor trade etc. By displaying these relevant logos the public can then choose a suitably qualified company.
This of course puts the onus on the public to select and it could be argued that they shouldn't be given the option of choosing unqualified and unscrupulous companies in the first place.
Having said that licencing will never garauntee good or safe workmanship any more than belonging to a trade organisation will.
I think the most worying development in our industry is the sale of pesticides, equipment and advice by ignorant untrained people to ignorant untrained Joe Public. Now if that's not a disaster waiting to happen then I don't know what is. |
Edited by - The Spotlight Kid on 18 Feb 2007 13:19:06 |
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Dog-rat
Member
United Kingdom
76 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 13:41:53
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Imho :- The Main Problem I can see with licensing is that the Big Co�s will hi-jack it.
Having talked to a Plumber friend about corgi reg this is how it happens. When it is his
time to be assessed he has the Corgi guy come out and assess him (HIM ALONE) for
which he pays x amount of pounds. When it is the Big co�s time to be assessed not every
plumber is checked just one per branch so they obviously send the assessor out with the
best guy ! not the one who is a bit dodgy.
Or will we have the same situation in other countries when techs are working �Under� a
licensed supervisor another get out clause !
When you go to your local Farm stores now and see a little old lady picking up a bottle of
DRAT which is clearly labelled for professional use only and is served just the same as if
she were buying a lump of cheese will a licence make any difference ? only if it is enforced,
who is going to enforce it ? Defra !!! Oh god help us trading standards ? they cant be
bothered now so what will change ?
Even now some of the worst practices are carried out by companies which are members of
trade associations when these associations get a nice big wad for the co�s membership their
not going to tick them off at all ! |
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NickA
Hyperactive Member
United Kingdom
797 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 14:31:45
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De- regulation.
Appears not by this government more snoopers being employed 4,000 Home Inspectors, smoking inspectors, pasport interviewers.
Hardly self regulating.
But schemes will be thwarted unless strong action is taken. But that means writing to your MP and lobbying Parliament, writing talking to your Associations to change things.
Even an august body like the CIEH understands that, "Establish channels of communication throughout industry, government, local authorities, academics, leading to greater awareness of problems & need for priorities"
But then like me it might be hot air.
Pests are smart - We're smarter
www.rpcwildlife.co.uk |
Edited by - NickA on 18 Feb 2007 14:32:59 |
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DaveM
New Member
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 15:38:22
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Iain,
As with Australia, although termites are big business here in Florida, doesn't mean this is true across the whole USA. However, generally there are a greater range of pests in and around the home here in the US and a greater reliance on applications to control them.
The question to ask is what issues exist in the UK with regards pesticides and their applications and whether certification and licensing would solve those problems?
It seems a pity that UK Gov't policy or lack of appears to be based on saving money rather than a desire to find an appropriate regulatory system. |
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splatman
Junior Member
United Kingdom
26 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 20:34:34
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| Money.... there's the magic word! On a daily rate, who is paid more, a qualified plumber, or a "qualified" pest controller? My bet is the plumber every time. Words such as "qualified" "Licensed" etc has bosses running into dark corners, they couldn't care less if their workforce is qualified or not, as long as the job gets done, and the clients pay their bills. Once pesties get "qualified" or "licensed" wages will have to go up, quite considerably I would have thought too. This would raise contract prices and ensure that people dont even bother with professionals. If you have a leaky tap, do you not try and fix it yourself first before paying a plumber? I can see in years to come, pest control going down the same road as any other profession...mopping up after an amatuer has tried to do something first...... |
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The Spotlight Kid
Member
82 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 22:52:18
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Sadly Splatman I couldn't agree more. The problem with pest control as I've always seen it is that it is providing a negative or invisible product/service. In other words after the customer has paid for your service, what have they got? Nothing (if you have done your job well). After your commercial customer has paid you their anual preventative fee what have they got for their money? (again, nothing if you have done a good job). They are all paying out money to be in the position that they were before they had pests in the first place. It is a bit like paying insurance; we all begrudge it.
When you pay for a car or other consumer product the gain is tangible. When you pay the plumber to fit the new boiler or new en-suit shower you feel the gain. When the electrician wires up the extention we know it might be expensive but we can see what we are getting for our money.
We know our work is skilled and important but we exist to bring back normality and the status quo to everyone's mundane lives. In this consumer age you will never make pest control sexy or well paid and it will never have the public respect it deserves because we are just as transitory as the rats that we terminate. Once the rats are forgotten, so are we. Oh yes, and don't park that van outside the house next week, I don't want the neighbours to think we've got rats.
Cynical ? maybe, don't get me wrong I'm a qualified electrician as well but I choose rats as my adversary and all the other pests on the list.
O.K. Cue the violins, I'm off to bed, got to be up early Monday morning, more customers to please. |
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splatman
Junior Member
United Kingdom
26 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 23:11:48
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Agreed, except that when I sell a contract, I try and remind people that we are selling peice of mind more than anything else. and also hopefully staving off prosecutions, heavy fines, closure etc, etc... have to go now being chased up to bed
...lol |
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Dusty
Senior Member
Australia
435 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 04:38:15
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It must make credibility and professionalism a tad difficult when firms are selling their product to pest controllers and also selling the very same product to the public through retailers.
When potential clients know perfectly well how much the product costs, (because they see it on the retailer's shelves)it must make it difficult to sell your service for a reasonable fee.
Like all trades and callings, we must sell our skills. In USA, Canada, South Africa,New Zealand and Australia clients accept that pest controllers have aquired skills, knowledge and at least a minimum of experience, plus a licence.Ths provides confidence that we "should" know what we are doing and also provides an avenue for complaint should we fail to provide our service with due care and safety. ( have already mentioned the punishment aspect)
Even without a licencing, it is up to us all to promote an image of professionalism.
This means we must know our subject thoroughly. On some of the forums I see questions asked that just simply should never need to be asked. They should be known and be second nature. Sometimes the replies make me cringe.
We should all use good quality equipment. My personal point of view is that we should have sprayers etc that are of better quality than the average a home owner is likely to have. Stainless steel hand sparayers in preference to plastic, good quality aluminium ladders, not some paint speckled wooden ladder that grand dad owned etc
Without a licence, then the two associations should (if they dont already) provide ID cards with photo that boldly declares that the person named is a professional pest controller
Bell used to conduct rodent courses and issue certificates PLUS a cloth badge. Surely they can be resurected in 2007, and surely other firms can provide similar. It should all help
Please do not take my criticism as insult. Certain aspects of UK pest control are streets ahead of Australia and probably USA. UK pesties seem to generally know much more about bird control, and are streets ahead in commensal pest control.
Trapping I cant comment upon, because it is a totally separate aspect of pest control in OZ
Don't feed them, get Rid of them - visit us on www.ridpest.com.au |
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Iain
Moderator
United Kingdom
220 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 08:27:36
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Maybe I have made the wrong assumptions about the effect of having termites on whether Governments licence pest controllers or not, but I cannot help but feel that termite control has a very significant effect on the perceived importance and therefore the value of PCOs as far as the public is concerned. I still suspect that this feeds through to the legislators.
Dusty, Dave - do you have the problem of "if you've got a marked vehicle, make sure you park down the road"? I suspect not.
In countries where termites occur, having an 'exterminator' call does not have the same social stigma that we have here.
I think that the Spotlight Kid has hit a few nails on the head with his posting. What we are actually providing is an invisible service, which too many people begrudge paying for - until they have a problem that costs them even more money.
Perhaps - just perhaps, there is a small glimmer of hope on the horizon.
Could it be that the BPD will ride to our rescue. If rodenticides are removed from amateur use, as has been suggested as one possibility, then there may be more pressure on EU Governments to 'control' the industry that provides the professional service, possibly by licencing..... |
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nigel
Senior Member
356 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 08:40:43
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I must admit since leaving LA employment I have been a bit more laid back in my attitude.
If I can explain, in one small hamlet I have had a number of rat jobs to do this winter, yet I have never in the past, privately, had a single job from this area.
In my former life, I knew the farmer who was responcible for the problem and kept an eye on him, when problems started to come in, I would go out of my way and have a chat with him and he would control the rats.
Because the private company now doing the pest control does not do things like this, he has managed to infest nearly everyone.
No longer my problem and I am thinking of sending him a Christmas card this year. He himself will not employ anyone to do the work, so no point even talking to him.
But as the spotlight kid points out, it is when some do not see the benifits of the service, that includes employers, then they under value it. |
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NickA
Hyperactive Member
United Kingdom
797 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 08:44:46
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Iain, aren't most European pest controllers licenced.
Marked vehicles have been around since at least Rentokil or should I say Ratin in 1927, Council vehicles then Sanitation dept.Prior to that Ratcatchers walking the streets with sashs and advertising boards.
Does the Queen hide the fact she employs Pest Control, do bakers, butchers, food premises hide the fact they may have flies by using EFks?
The perception of the Industry starts with self.
The benefit is peace of mind,whether its a shower or new plumbing or wiring the benefit is there, but if a pestie has only been on premises only 10 -15 minutes not got his knees dirty or solved the problem by simple sealing/caulking the customer might feel they have got a service that maybe was a drain on the pocket.
Surveyers for pest control companies are really salesman and do they really care about the job they are selling or the price charged. They get the commission, or should it be aimed at the owners whether private or public who allow these practices.
Obviously there are companies and salesmen with Integrity but I expect they are not the norm
Pests are smart - We're smarter
www.rpcwildlife.co.uk |
Edited by - NickA on 19 Feb 2007 08:46:05 |
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Licencing of PCOs? Not a hope!
