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Iain
Moderator
United Kingdom
360 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Jun 2007 : 16:41:51
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This has been suggested by several people recently and I have to say that I am rather confused by it.
Are you saying that the public would have to call out a pest controller if:
...they had a few flies buzzing around their kitchen, which a can of fly spray would sort out?
...they had some clothes moth in their wardrobe that a mothkiller strip would control?
...they wanted to keep mosquitoes out of their caravan that a heated mat would repel?
...they had some aphids on their roses?
...their tomatoes had some mildew?
That is the implication from those that suggest that that 'pesticides sales to the public should be banned'.
That's clearly nonsense - so let's be a bit more precise in our suggestions shall we?
Should it be that certain pests should be 'Professional Control Only?' Wasps and rats perhaps?
Are people suggesting that perhaps all rodenticides should be 'Pro Only'?
Let's leave aside the sale/use of 'Pro Only' products by amateurs for the moment as that is a completely different issue.
Let's find out exactly what people mean by 'Banning pesticides sales to amateurs' - with the justifications for their proposals. |
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Matt the Rat
Moderator
395 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2007 : 16:47:02
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I think what people object to is the ridiculous situation where it is perfectly legal to purchase products which are labelled 'For Professional Use Only' and only an offence to use them.
I dont think anyone is suggesting that the public should not have access to amateur use products.
What is the point in having label restrictions if they are not fully enforced? |
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The Spotlight Kid
Senior Member
274 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2007 : 18:43:24
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I think that what a lot of professionals object to is that we get our RSPH/BPCA then the NPTA Advanced, do the trapping and wildlife management courses a la CPD etc. Why do we do that; So that we are fully conversant with the requirements of our industry, the legislation, the biology, the pesticides, the risks to the environment, AC resistance management, proofing and prevention etc etc etc. and then we can go out in the field and really start to learn our subject.
And then there's Joe, good old Joe. I don't think we need to elaborate on Joe in relation to this debate do we. Bless him !
Are we saying we have to call out an electrician every time we need a new socket? Yes we do. |
Edited by - The Spotlight Kid on 30 Jun 2007 18:44:02 |
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Paulf
Junior Member
36 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2007 : 19:09:53
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Ian, of course not. The sugestion is that a limited range and quantity of pesticides would be availble to the public without needing proof of training. Note the words LIMTED QUANTITY.
Certainly not the cureent situation were the public can walk into the nearest farmers merchant and buy 10kg buckets of Jaguar etc to sling about on the lawn to deal with any passing rats. |
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Fett
Senior Member
United Kingdom
132 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2007 : 20:28:28
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Iain. I've made several attempts, on various threads, to explain my feelings on the matter. Without the inclination to rehash everything I'll paraphrase as briefly as I can.
I do not want to see an end to the amateur market.
I do want to see a stop to the repackaging of professional products to see them downgraded to amateur.
I do want to see a legally enforceable, minimum, level of training for ALL pest controllers.
I do want to see a change in the law that would change the offence of amateurs using professional products to amateurs buying professional products.
As this will never happen any certificates, training, proficiency is purely voluntary and consequently worthless. I commend your stance, and those of the other suppliers, of not supplying to people without qualifications but as the majority of the people buying pesticides have never heard of any of you they continue to operate in ignorance without any clue about legal or ethical reprisals.
We live in a country where the public can buy fumigants over the counter at agricultural suppliers. We may have a great safety record but the studies of pesticides Vs wildlife damage are still in their infancy. Voluntary regulation might be great for everyone but it isn't for me. I'd like to see major changes in the industry and if these were implemented I'd jump through burning hoops to excel at what still is my chosen career.
As this will never happen I still maintain that my BPCA certificate isn't worth the paper it's printed on. |
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The Spotlight Kid
Senior Member
274 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2007 : 20:56:57
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I think Fett has comprehensively and intelligently put into words exactly how I feel about the situation regarding this subject.
I also believe that some sort of licensing/registration scheme could actually achieve it.
Let's keep on track and bury the hatchet because we are all working for the same cause and this is an important debate.
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wolf
Starting Member
United Kingdom
2 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2007 : 22:32:40
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| hi-i am new to the forum so would like to say hello-now on to what i was going to say-this is an important point iain has raised. we can all zap the flies etc with the propreitary sprays etc. in my opinion there are certain pesticides (phostoxin for example) that should not be released for public sale for obvious reasons-one of those being in order to work with these substances special training is required-ppe needs to be utilised. the general public can and will cut corners. |
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Iain
Moderator
United Kingdom
360 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2007 : 13:00:12
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Anybody can put together a 'wish list' of how they might prefer the industry to be structured and managed, but when it involves little things like 'changing the Law' then it just becomes a fantasy.
Unfortunately, what I have seen is a lot of unsubstantiated allegations, without any evidence to back them up. We cannot take that to the Government in any lobbying for change.
For instance I would be very surprised if a member of the public could walk into an ag merchant and buy phostoxin. Have you seen this happen? Have you any evidence? If you have then the merchant concerned could lose their BASIS certification if they were reported. I know that Certis (Luxan as was) test out their outlets for their aluminium phosphide products by the use of a "mystery shopper" (Helen A to you and me).
What I am particularly interested in is testing the existing enforcement procedures and where they are found wanting, exposing it.
Mis-use of pesticides is very difficult to prove, but if you came across it - would you do anything about it? Would you know what to do?
I'm currently involved with Trading Standards and an illegal pesticide product I bought in a shop recently. This should be relatively straight forward as it is clear from the label that the HSE has never even seen it. They know that I am acting on behalf of the NPTA, so it will be interesting to see what they do. If they do nothing, then we shall have to ask them - very publically - why.
Pest controllers must surely come across instances of product mis-use, but what happens then? If we were all to make an utter nuisance of ourselves with Trading Standards, or whichever Government body is involved (I am not entirely sure myself) then perhaps, just perhaps, we as an industry would be taken a little more seriously.
Are you up for it? |
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Matt the Rat
Moderator
395 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2007 : 13:38:20
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Here we go then:
Mole Valley Farmers openly sell large buckets of Slaymore (Norvartis) and Neosorexa Gold (Sorex) - which are clearly marked 'For Professional Use Only'. Both products are available off the shelf, to anyone who goes in there.
I have taken this up with MVF, PSD, Trading Standards, and the HSE in the past; all to no avail.
MVF argue that they are a farmers co-operative, therefore, they are entitled to sell it to their customers. The slogan of Mole Valley Farmers is 'Country shopping for all'.
My problem with all of this is that anyone can buy these products with no questions asked.
Perhaps the manufacturers could comment?
Alluminium Phosphide products are different. As part one poisons, the poison book has to be signed by the purchaser. I have never come accross either 'Talunex' or 'Phostoxin' available for sale to the general public, but I'm sure others might have.
With all the pressure on us about secondry anti-coagulant poisoning, what are the manufacturers doing to prevent the unauthorised use of 'professional' products? (cue Jonathan and CRRU!)
I understand what you say about new laws, but what about the full enforcement of the existing laws? If a product is labelled 'for professional use only' should it be available to anyone? Trading standards already check goods for sale, why cant they check who is selling pesticides to the public? |
Edited by - Matt the Rat on 01 Jul 2007 13:41:49 |
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NickA
Hyperactive Member
United Kingdom
1043 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2007 : 14:59:47
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Well I remember a "Rogue Traders" programme with Aluminium Phosphide being sold to a reporter.
Not alleged.
Ian one supplier supplies a pest controller who has tippexed documents, came from another suppliers rep years ago.
This pestie can not buy from one person because they will not supply him. But he goes behind back to get supplied.
Another supplier also supplies him, never seen his documents.
Hes a good pest controller from customers view point but a nightmare for the industry.
To me it has to be the operative who is licensed or classed as the professional user.
Lets not lose sight of the fact that BASIS was set up for the Ag market and those caught have had severe fines.
Are the manufacturers losing sleep over amateurs using their products?
Pests are smart - We're smarter
www.rpcwildlife.co.uk |
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Iain
Moderator
United Kingdom
360 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2007 : 15:03:00
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What size buckets?
A product that is 'Professional Use Only' in 20kg sacks becomes 'Amateur Use' in smaller packs. Off the top of my head, I think the 'magic' size is 10kgs. Sounds odd I know, but that's how things stand at present.
Secondly, as I understand it, the sale of Professional Use Only products does not, in Law, require the production of any paperwork to prove that the proposed user is properly trained. The suppliers in our sector choose to insist on such paperwork, but are not actually required by Law to do so.
You may not agree with what Mole Valley are doing, but it doesn't sound to me that they are breaking any existing Laws.
I'm not saying I agree with this either, nor am I trying to justify it in any way - I'm simply stating what the situation is.
Finally, do you have any evidence which suggests that selling rodenticides in this way has actually resulted in significant damage to persons or the environment? If it could be proved that selling such products to 'Joe Public' caused such harm, we would have a case to take to the Advisory Committee on Pesticdes. However, I certainly am not aware of such evidence.
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Fett
Senior Member
United Kingdom
132 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2007 : 18:02:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Iain
Anybody can put together a 'wish list' of how they might prefer the industry to be structured and managed, but when it involves little things like 'changing the Law' then it just becomes a fantasy.
Agreed but then you started the thread. As it stands the content of this thread is as pointless as certificates we're trying so hard to buy.
You asked us what we want to see. We told you.
quote:
Originally posted by Iain
Unfortunately, what I have seen is a lot of unsubstantiated allegations, without any evidence to back them up. We cannot take that to the Government in any lobbying for change.
Again what's the point. NOTHING WILL BE DONE ANYWAY!
We were asked for our opinions and what we would like to see. We reply and are subsequently dismissed.
quote:
Originally posted by Iain
For instance I would be very surprised if a member of the public could walk into an ag merchant and buy phostoxin. Have you seen this happen? Have you any evidence? If you have then the merchant concerned could lose their BASIS certification if they were reported. I know that Certis (Luxan as was) test out their outlets for their aluminium phosphide products by the use of a "mystery shopper" (Helen A to you and me).
Been there, done it, worn the T shirt. I buy it quite a bit and I've never been asked for anything resembling a training certificate.
You say it can't happen. It made national television, on Rogue Traders, as Nick pointed out. There are technicians working for national companies that are using these fumigants without applicators (because of cost) and without ANY FORMAL TRAINING.
I know non BPCA qualified technicians that have photocopied the certificates (of qualified techs) and changed the details on computer to buy pesticides from larger suppliers and to get jobs in our completely self regulated industry. It just p***es me off considering I paid around a thousand pounds for mine, and it wasn't worth the postage to send it to me.
quote:
Originally posted by Iain
Mis-use of pesticides is very difficult to prove, but if you came across it - would you do anything about it? Would you know what to do?
I've tried to but I'm so sick of being stonewalled I don't even bother anymore. We try bringing it light but either get shouted down or threatened with our jobs.
quote:
Originally posted by Iain
I'm currently involved with Trading Standards and an illegal pesticide product I bought in a shop recently. This should be relatively straight forward as it is clear from the label that the HSE has never even seen it. They know that I am acting on behalf of the NPTA, so it will be interesting to see what they do. If they do nothing, then we shall have to ask them - very publically - why.
I'd be very interested to see the results of that case and to see whether the HSE has any teeth, in this arena.
quote:
Originally posted by Iain
Pest controllers must surely come across instances of product mis-use, but what happens then? If we were all to make an utter nuisance of ourselves with Trading Standards, or whichever Government body is involved (I am not entirely sure myself) then perhaps, just perhaps, we as an industry would be taken a little more seriously.
Are you up for it?
I've spent the last few years working with technicians that are unethical at best and criminal at worst. All are trading. None have ever been brought to task for it. I've really got very little left in me apart from outright cynicism. This isn't trivial stuff like not reading the label everytime the product is used. It's big stuff like selling gear out of the back of vans to supplement income. Decanting insecticides into soft drink bottles, so people can treat for ants at home?
Got rats in your garden? No problem. Stick this brodifacoum sewer bait on the bird table or nail this block of Klerat to a piece of wood and leave it under the rabbit hutch.
The thing is how far are you prepared to go to see just how bad it actually is? I cannot physically afford the time to go around pulling every pesticide/wildlife offence I see and judging by the total lack of responses to the ones I have brought to the attention of senior managers what exactly am I supposed to do?
As you've gone to great lengths to contradict anything that's been highlighted here then why would you expect anyone to actually bring anything to you in the future.
I had a digital picture, in another thread, of the Klerat block I removed from under someone's rabbit hutch. Because I didn't actually have a camera on me at the time it's my word against the guy the did it. If I took the picture in situ what's to say I didn't do it on purpose? The excuses are endless so we can't actually do anything other than say it's going on.
You said so yourself that misuse of pesticides is almost impossible to prove. So then what?
Forget about it... I'll just clock in tomorrow and worry about something else........ |
Edited by - Fett on 01 Jul 2007 18:09:47 |
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The Spotlight Kid
Senior Member
274 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2007 : 18:39:38
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I was trapping moles for a customer last year and noticed rabbits in the garden. There was a bury in one of the flower borders so asked him whether he wanted me to sort them out at the same time.
No, it's ok he said, the farmer next door gets me Phostoxin to put down the holes!
If you only sell to licenced/registered/trained buyers then this shouldn't happen.
I can understand Fett's cynicism, the amateur market is getting bigger all the time especially now with the on-line selling. Don't tell me all the on-line sales conducted by phone or e-mail are vetted for suitability and training. Suppliers are reaping the rewards of this massive new market but wildlife will be the losers and so will we when they contribute to the induction of resistance.
Maybe the manufacturers and suppliers should concentrate on a replacement for second generation ACs instead as we are going to need them sooner than you might think. |
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Matt the Rat
Moderator
395 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2007 : 19:04:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Iain
What size buckets?
What difference does it make? They are clearly marked:
FOR PROFESSIONAL USE ONLY
If I want to buy a worm drench for my horse, I have to give my name and address. Anyone can wander in and pick up a large quantity of rodenticide, with no quesions asked.
If anyone wants to know why raptors are being found with high levels of anti-coagulant in them, maybe they should think about this. |
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Paulf
Junior Member
36 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2007 : 20:37:13
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Spot on Matt, the systme works for vetinary medicines and should work for rodenticides.
I have yet to see properly demonstrated were any large cost would come in other than pherhaps to supliers who worry about a potential sales area lost ie the ag market.
Abuses would be invesigated by the health and safety exec as before but significantly a change in law would make it easyer for them to take action.
With all the health and safety regulations that are now geting passed ie electrical part P, working at height etc sooner or later some form of regulation will come, to my mind we need to lobby proactivly so any regulation actualy suports us rather than hindering. |
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Fett
Senior Member
United Kingdom
132 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2007 : 21:17:20
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How about this?
Get rid of all professional use pesticides. Downgrade them all to amateur and let the industry regulate itself from there... The amateur market is clearly where the money is. |
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Iain
Moderator
United Kingdom
360 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2007 : 21:35:29
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What size buckets?
Because both Slaymore and Neosorexa Gold have both 'Professional' and 'Amateur' Approvals, which will depend on the size of the packs.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pesticides/bluebook/section09.pdf
As I said before though, even if they did supply the 'Professional Use' product to someone without checking their training records, they would not be breaking the Law.
The untrained person who might then use it would be, however.
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The Spotlight Kid
Senior Member
274 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2007 : 22:02:38
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Totally unenforceable then, and you wonder why we want some kind of licensing/registration.
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Iain
Moderator
United Kingdom
360 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2007 : 08:26:19
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Spot,
At the moment yes - but that may be just for the moment. Jonathan Peck has made some very relevant and useful comments on this in the string on 'Poll'.
As for licencing, I understand completely why properly 'professional' pest controllers would want it. It is just that I cannot see it happening anytime soon, so we ought to focus our efforts where perhaps we can make a difference.
I'm sorry if this has come over as been dismissive to some, but I felt it vitally important that everyone understood what the Law is now - however non-sensical it might appear.
Perhaps the first step therefore would be to get the sale of 'Professional Only' products to professionals only made enforceable, as JP suggests is possible.
As far as all the other issues are concerned, especially those raised by Fett, I have no easy answers. I have come across the frustration of having no faith in the enforcement bodies before. Unless they are willing and able to enforce COPR - and we can see this and know who we should be approaching, then we are likely all to become as cynical as Fett.
Perhaps another achievable goal would be to put enough pressure on the enforcement bodies to make them protect us all from those that are ignorant of - or choose to ignore - the Laws that are already in place.
That has to be an industry-wide initiative. |
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wolf
Starting Member
United Kingdom
2 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2007 : 22:53:28
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| i beleive all of the more dangerous redenticides/insecticides should only be avialiable for sale to licensed pest control operatives -the law should make it a criminal offence to be in possession of such substances as warfarin/phostoxin/deerat and talunex. anybody can buy poisons containing difenacoum etc from the local wilkos. but this is a different ball game. the problem here is most of the general public don't bother to read what happens if you abuse these substances-they are only interested in the bit that tells them what to do with it. then when they have finished with it back it goes in the garage-with this stuff it only takes one accident. |
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Banning pesticides sales to amateurs ?
