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ben
Senior Member
United Kingdom
145 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 14:04:24
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as a user of one of these systerms i dont see what all the fuss is about ,if a company has sites all over the place normally one person will be in overall charge of the pest control. if this person can gather all the info they need from thier desk it will save them money and time with up to date information at their finger tips.
on the flip side it will save the pest control company time and money with up to date info time spend , preps used etc and it will not have to be hand typed in at the end of the week .
the only down side is the poor bugger who has to but in this information in the first place as well as write out a hard copy sometimes.
both companies will save money in the long run when they have to colate this information at the end the year.
whatever systerm you have e-reporting ,bar coding, hand writing etc will not tell you if the pest controler is a good one or not. that is why you have audits on sites by your people and theres.
ben
you learn as you go |
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ABPest
Senior Member
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 15:28:57
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Ben, me old mate, you have highlighted one major problem:-
"The person in overall charge of pest control can sit at their desk and gather all the info. they need"
They really need to get off their bums and get out and about and see what is happening.
Adrian. |
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apodemus flavicolis
Starting Member
United Kingdom
9 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 19:01:11
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Simmo
Why can you not just export the data onto an exel spreadsheet then sort by what ever criteria you want. You can then get each monitor point for as many visits as you like together to compare. If the system does not give you what you want, ask them to change it so that it does. The point of the system is to give you as much info as you require, to go beyond a simple paper system, to allow data manipulation to suit the customer.
Could it be that training is required if so again ask I am sure they would be only to happy to help. |
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Simmo
Junior Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 19:31:33
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Apodemus
Why on earth should I have to go to the trouble of exporting data in order to get it into a form where I can read it in some form of sensible way!!!!!!!! Moreover, a site may have individual scanning records for all routines, follows ups, fly unit services etc. I certainly have neither the time nor the inclination to spend what could literally be hours trying to review something that I could do in 10 minutes with a report file.
As to asking the company to change the system, then I suggest that one person (me) criticising a system that is in operation in multiple countries is unlikely to generate much response. Believe me I have made my feelings known on those sites where I work, where such systems are in place. It is only when the customer complains that anything is done, and the �anything� normally means reverting to paper, because these systems are so inflexible that it is easier for the contractor to drop them than to tailor them to the needs of individual customers.
Ben
You have highlighted the only real benefit for the customer, remote access to the records for multiple sites. There really is absolutely NO other benefit for the customer, so if the manager is responsible for only a few sites why bother with e-reporting? Why are contractors promoting these systems as a great leap forward (as if I didn�t know the answer already).
�Both companies will save money in the long run�. Do you really believe that?
Adrian
Absolutely agree, but real world and all that, if someone has 300 stores to manage then how likely is this to happen.
Keep the discussion coming, I feel that I am purging a lot of pent-up frustrations here.
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nigel
Senior Member
311 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 19:55:53
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quote:
You have highlighted the only real benefit for the customer, remote access to the records for multiple sites. There really is absolutely NO other benefit for the customer,
The only other I could think of is that they can check if the work is actually getting done. If they are paying a company to check their site in an agreed manner, this gives them access to information to confirm if the work is being done or not.
Systems like this remind me of the alledged story of NASA trying to solve the problem of astronauts writting reports in zero gravity. After spending millions of dollars they developed a pen that could write in space.
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The Russians it is claimed, just used a pencil |
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ben
Senior Member
United Kingdom
145 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 20:14:13
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ab this is why they employ auditers to do this for them lol and why bigger pest control companies audit there own staff to make sure the work is being carried out as it should.
to qoute an old bit of legal wording and you all know it DUE DILLIGENCE.
simmo yes i do think that over the couse of a year the amout of finger punching you will save in the office if the tec is doing it as he goes along bearing in mind i are talking about tecs all over the country. you just want need the staff to put in the data by hand the tec will do as he does his job.
you learn as you go |
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fred
Starting Member
1 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2006 : 10:48:07
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any form of reporting is only as good as the person using it
there are systems out there that allow you to identify the pest activity and form of activity along with saying new pesticide has been put down, as well as simply telling the customer that the bait point has been opened and scanned |
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apodemus flavicolis
Starting Member
United Kingdom
9 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 19:49:10
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Simmo
What do you mean "Why on earth should I have to go to the trouble of exporting data in order to get it into a form where I can read it in some form of sensible way!!!!!!!! " It involves 1 click of a mouse then selecting the date range you require. Once it is in this format you can then sort the data into as many different categories as you like again at the click of a mouse. It really is simple and it then allows you the auditor to check the records very quickly. You still have to do a physical check to check on the condition of the monitoring points as well as the housekeeping etc. Should you be the one to deny the customer the use of this powerful tooljust because you cannot be bothered to EXPORT the data. A paper record is limited in what it can tell you unless you write it in multiple formats eg Checklist, Report, Summary etc etc etc etc. You are still just writting the same thing over and over again just differently. an e-reporting system is just a reporting system to use it is just like learning to swim. |
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apodemus flavicolis
Starting Member
United Kingdom
9 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 19:53:40
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Nigel
Following your philosophy should we all go back to using RATIN. The pest control industry have also spent millions of dollars developing new ways of doing things but we could be like the Russians and just use the old fashioned way. A broken pencil in space is still a useless piece of dead wood just like a bad technician. |
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Simmo
Junior Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 21:30:43
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Apodemus
When I wrote "Why on earth should I have to go to the trouble of exporting data in order to get it into a form where I can read it in some form of sensible way!!!!!!!!" I actually menat to say "Why on earth should I have to go to the trouble of exporting data in order to get it into a form where I can read it in some form of sensible way!!!!!!!!"
Sorry I couldn't put it any clearer. It is not my job to put the information in the pest control records in a form that is easy to interpret and audit IT IS THE JOB OF THE CONTRACTOR. If they can't come up with a system that does this then just why should I be anything other than critical. After all, there are numerous (though not as many as there should be) pest control companies out there who are providing the customer with the information they need, in the form that it is most useful to them. |
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nigel
Senior Member
311 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 22:28:50
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The day a barcode can tell the customer why they find themself infested in the first place and what needs to be done to prevent it, then I personally will buy half a dozen.
It truely is a shame that some of those millions do not go on better training of staff........... |
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Simmo
Junior Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2006 : 21:53:38
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This argument about service quality and barcodes vs old-fashioned bait box dating is a red herring.
The real issue that I am trying to keep the discussion going on concerns the whole principle of e-reporting and whether it generates any benefits at all for the customer (apart from a manager responsible for multiple sites being able to access records remotely).
Nobody yet has said anything to convince me that these systems represent a step forward, and most of them are, I absolutely believe, a step backwards. Only the simplest (and that is not a derogatory term) e-reporting systems actually work, and that is because most of the informationm remains in written form, with only the monitor inspection record provided in e-form.
Come on, lets have a few contributions to defend them from the big service providers who use these systems. I'm sure some representatives from these companies use or view this forum. |
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blatta
Senior Member
United Kingdom
113 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2006 : 22:12:36
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Simmo,
1. What about the comments that Af made earlier about filtering reports online? These allow the customer to split off relevant sections so that they can be passed to key departments.
Surely this would be a benefit?
2. Some systems can produce trending graphs at the click of a button that keep the third party auditors such as BRC happy.
3. errrrrrmmm...
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apodemus flavicolis
Starting Member
United Kingdom
9 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2006 : 20:10:04
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Simmo
Sorry I was not more clear in my question when you said "Why on earth should I have to go to the trouble of exporting data in order to get it into a form where I can read it in some form of sensible way!!!!!!!!" Did that mean "why should I bother I want it handed to me on a plate" The point of exporting the data is it makes your job as the auditor easier. You can sort the data into whatever category you like. Do you want to see all the monitor point not scanned on the last 10 or even 100 visits NOT A PROBLEM just sort it that way. Do you want to see all the monitor points that have had mice on the last 10 or even 100 visits NOT A PROBLEM just sort it. Do you want to see all the recommendations made in one particular area NOT A PROBLEM just sort it. Do you want to see how quickly the customer responds to recommendations NOT A PROBLEM just sort it + no putting in dates months before just because an auditor is coming. The point of the system is not to make the auditors life easy that is just a by product but to make the customers life easy THEY PAY OUR BILL NOT THE AUDITOR.
An e-reporting system also allows generic documentation to be updated at the click of a mouse how many times do auditors pick up on out of date documentation WELL NOT ANY MORE.
I have had auditors suddenly ask for something new something that they have never asked for before such as training records not a problem the customer phones during an audit tells me and hey presto instant response the training records are on the web site.
If you want to make your life easier learn to use the system to its full potential dont just complain because its new.
Nigel
I assume you leave a report book on customers premises, this does not tell the customer "why they find themself infested in the first place and what needs to be done to prevent it" That is done by the person leaving the report exactly like an e-reporting system. ITS JUST A REPORT. I agree more money should be spent on training.
The system is just a reporting system good quality pest control is still required. E-reporting just makes it easier to spot sloppy "Book Work" as well as lazy pest control ( TO A DEGREE ). This must be a benefit to the customer. They pay for quality (WELL SOME DO)that is what they should get. This just helps police it. I know Simmo says that the customer pays for proper pest control and the client is not bothered if e-reporting helps detect poor work easier, but I still maintain that policing a technicians work is a benefit to the customer as it helps reduce poor work. Just like the police help reduce crime we may not be interested until we become a victim of crime a customer might not be interested in poor work until they become a victim of it. E-reporting can help prevent this if it is used properly. |
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nigel
Senior Member
311 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2006 : 20:34:22
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quote:
I assume you leave a report book on customers premises, this does not tell the customer "why they find themself infested in the first place and what needs to be done to prevent it"
Mine does
I have no qualms in telling the customer what needs to be done to stop any current infestation or action needed to prevent further infestations in their reports. THATS WHAT THEY PAY ME FOR.
Killing rodents after they have only infested a premise is not due dilligence, nor is it taking "all reasonable precautions" if action could have been taken to prevent infestation in the first place.
For the managers or owners of my contracts to help them now fulfill their requirements under the new food regs and their requirements for HACCP, they all get a proofing check list. This details virtually every possible points of entry in to their premise for rodents, it details what they should be looking for in order to comply with their requirement to show that as far as reasonably practicle, their properties are proofed against rodent entry.
This is based on what I would be expected to look for when gathering evidence for prosecution cases. They are given a form in their file which as they check each point off, they can report their own findings and action taken to rectify them. |
Edited by - nigel on 13 Dec 2006 20:54:34 |
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apodemus flavicolis
Starting Member
United Kingdom
9 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 20:20:47
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Nigel
Its still not the report book that "tells" them anything, IT IS THE QUALIFIED TECHNICIAN that fills the report in that IS TELLING THEM. If you do not fill in a report fully and correctly whether it is in paper format or electronic it is not worth anything to the customer. My arguement is that E-reporting in itself is not at fault but the users. Perhaps users could use it better be they technician or auditor. It is a tool for reporting information, but as an electronic medium it can be in the right hands a more powerful tool than paper. |
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nigel
Senior Member
311 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 21:05:55
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quote:
My arguement is that E-reporting in itself is not at fault but the users
Which is why in my earlier thread I said the only information you can trust on a e-report is that box "A" was scanned on day "B" at time "C" as the scanner actually acts as an independent "witness" to this fact. Everything else could just as easily be a great work of fiction (same for paper reports). That is all the information I would trust on an e-report.
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Dusty
Senior Member
Australia
382 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 21:13:47
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Nigel, perhaps not even that much. Some time ago I was reading an article where a scam using photocopied bar codes was being used (wasnt a pest control situation) The reason? The employee wasnt given enough time to carry out the inspections.
Don't feed them, get Rid of them |
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nigel
Senior Member
311 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 21:18:31
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Believe it or not you can actually download a free software programme for printing your own barcodes.
So I would not be surprised Dusty |
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Dog-rat
Member
United Kingdom
71 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2006 : 07:47:10
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Knowing how some of the techs I had in my last job could "Work" there hand helds, I would put nothing passed some techs  |
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Bar codes
